The Road to the 2012 King George

I have to disagree with your assessment of Grands Crus, Tanlic. If he gets g/soft or good ground he'll be in the mix. He ran the Feltham last year nearly 3 seconds faster than Kauto Star and Long Run ran in the King George over same c/d on the same day carrying only 3lb less. He comfortably beat Silviniaco Conti and Bobs Worth in that race. Over Hurdles he got closer to Big Bucks than any other horse has done at level weights since Punchestowns. His only bad race came in the RSA this year which I put down to his lack of stamina over 3m+ on a stiff track but I think 3m at Kempton provided the ground is no worse than g/soft will be right up his street.
 
Tanlic said:
I've never been a big fan but in reality he remains the horse they all have to beat.
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Agree about Long Run, but disagree about Grand Crus. Should hack up in the PP and then we'll see what happens in the KG. Thought you were opposing Long Run this season anyway, Tanlic?
 
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Long Run won't be winning anything worthwhile unless he's learned to jump better and, as Nicky, Yogi, SWC et al have failed to master him thus far, it seems unlikely his technique is suddenly going to prove more adequate this term.
Yes, he finished 2nd to Kauto Star last year, but that wasn't the same Kauto as a couple of years previous, and with non-stayers in 3rd and 4th, he could hardly have finished elsewhere. Both his subsequent runs showed how good he isn't, and it'll be a poor King George if there's nothing in the field better.
 
reet hard said:
Yes, he finished 2nd to Kauto Star last year, but that wasn't the same Kauto as a couple of years previous, and with non-stayers in 3rd and 4th, he could hardly have finished elsewhere.
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I think it was a poor renewal and the Feltham form whilst good is being overrated due to this bogus argument re the comparitive time of the race. Mr Moonshine and Teaforthree set the race up perfectly for a good time.
 
reet hard said:
Long Run won't be winning anything worthwhile unless he's learned to jump better and, as Nicky, Yogi, SWC et al have failed to master him thus far, it seems unlikely his technique is suddenly going to prove more adequate this term.
Yes, he finished 2nd to Kauto Star last year, but that wasn't the same Kauto as a couple of years previous, and with non-stayers in 3rd and 4th, he could hardly have finished elsewhere. Both his subsequent runs showed how good he isn't, and it'll be a poor King George if there's nothing in the field better.
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this must be a first;)..but i totally agree with this

Long Run has been overrated for a long time..he does have a great engine but the jumoing must be knocking about 10lb off his rating
 
Well you can deduct half a stone in ratings from that performance and it still tells its own story in terms of who he beat and by how far. If he sorts out the errors in his jumping which he's still more than entitled to do aged 7 he is going to eat a lot of these protagonsits for breakfast.
 
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Tks for setting up this thread Bar.
Always a fascinating race and the high light of festive season since I (sort of) outgrew Santa.
Those of us old enough to remember Batchelors Hall and Bright Highway realise how much second or third season chasers can improve this time of year.Both won Mackeson Hennessey KG so For Non Stop at 20s may be value if he can find another 10lb or so.
 
Bar the Bull said:
My favourite race of all time is probably Florida Pearl's win. It was a great race with three wonderful horses going at it hammer and tongs in the last 6f.
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Great race, and a great ride from Adrian Maguire who only stepped in late from J P McNamara I think, because Sedgefield failed a morning inspection.
 
My love with racing really blossomed as Florida Pearl's career progressed.

I remember being at Leopardstown when he won his bumper at Christmas.

I remember being on him when he won the Champion Bumper.

I remember his battles with Escartefigue, his fall in the Ericsson, his Gold Cup failures, his Hennessy wins, his King George, his Aintree win.

He was a great horse, because he was versatile, becuase he had his imperfections and because he was winning Grade 1 races every year from 1997 to (I think) 2004.

A lot of people talk about the Denman Kauto Star years.

But those early years of Florida Pearl's staying chasing career were good fun.

See More Business, Looks Like Trouble, First Gold, Florida Pearl, Dorans Pride, Imperial Call, Rince Ri, Escartefigue, Alexander Banquet...savage depth.
 
reet hard said:
Long Run won't be winning anything worthwhile unless he's learned to jump better and, as Nicky, Yogi, SWC et al have failed to master him thus far, it seems unlikely his technique is suddenly going to prove more adequate this term.
Yes, he finished 2nd to Kauto Star last year, but that wasn't the same Kauto as a couple of years previous, and with non-stayers in 3rd and 4th, he could hardly have finished elsewhere. Both his subsequent runs showed how good he isn't, and it'll be a poor King George if there's nothing in the field better.
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Arkle would have struggled to beat Kauto\a couple of years previous...It was still a mega performance for Long Run to get so close to him as even 10lbs below his best Kauto was a 180+ horse....Grands Crus is a friggin 160 Chaser who has done bog all Reet......Long Run could walk through every fence and beat him.....PIPE HYPE 2nd to Big Bucks bla bla bla he's an overrated piece of lard and when I sober up I'll prove it:lol:
 
Bar the Bull said:
See More Business, Looks Like Trouble, First Gold, Florida Pearl, Dorans Pride, Imperial Call, Rince Ri, Escartefigue, Alexander Banquet...savage depth.
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He wasn't really top class but can I throw the likes of Marlborough and Flagship Uberalles (he was!) in there. Racing will never be as much fun to me again as what it was from about 1999 to 2003!
 
Swedish Chef and Marble are both on the right lines here as far as I am concerned and Grands Crus will put himself right in the picture by winning the Paddy Power Gold Cup chase first,unless Hunt Ball has a rocket up his backside again !!

IF Long Run returns to the form he showed in 2010/11 then he could regain his crown.

Tanlic you must certainly have been drunk to even consider a remote possibility that Arkle may have struggled to beat Kauto Star anywhere at level weights or even giving him a stone and a half,which is what he conceded to his rivals in his King George races !

He would have toyed with Kauto Star round there the same way he toyed with Dunkirk in 1965, and would also have won 5 King Georges, but for a premature end to his career ,even though he was ALWAYS conceding weight to the opposition in every race after the 1963 Hennessy Gold Cup except for the Cheltenham Gold Cup itself !

A one-off freak known as "Himself" !
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
He would have toyed with Kauto Star round there the same way he toyed with Dunkirk in 1965, and would also have won 5 King Georges, but for a premature end to his career ,even though he was ALWAYS conceding weight to the opposition in every race after the 1963 Hennessy Gold Cup except for the Cheltenham Gold Cup itself !

A one-off freak known as "Himself" !
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Wasn't Dunkirk just a two miler? Racing was nowhere near as competitive then as it is now, there were no French bred horses racing over here. And we saw last season that less than top class animals are capable of winning Gold Cup's if the chips fall right for them. I imagine in the 60s and 70s some right old nags were capable of getting placed if not winning the race.
 
Racing back then was a different sport ... fitness not as developed/refined, training methods more primitive, less competition, few French horses etc etc. Arkle was no doubt an exceptional horse, but it needs to be put into the context of his time. Kauto was something else altogether, especially those few weeks where he raced at every distance going.
 
you only needed one horse to tell you how good Arkle was to be fair..if the argument is that the rest of the compettion were hopeless by todays standards..which i don't really believe.but if you do believe that you can ignore them and just understand how high Mill House was rated by his trainer and owners...he was easily the Denman of that age.

What would we rate a horse that could regularly hammer Denman???

we have had a lesson on the flat this year of understanding just how good once in a lifetime horses really are...forgetting that Frankel ever existed and telling someone that there may be a horse capable of hammering a really good miler like Excelebration up to 10 lengths would probably get a reaction of disbelief...and beating him without being asked a real question.

I think its hard for anyone nowadays to believe that a horse could possibly be a stone better than KS.

I have no doubt that KS is the best jumps horse i have ever seen or likely to..but i still think Arkle was better..so do Timeform..and so does his record against what was commonly regarded as the best chaser seen in this country since the war..and possibly of all time up to that year...Mill House

Only one horse had the handicapping system changed if he ran..thats never been done before or since..KS has run in a handicap and didn't exactly find it easy conceding the weight..a small amount of weight compared to what Arkle gave to future GC horses
 
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I highly doubt they'll ever be a chaser that gets anywhere near the ratings that Arkle (212) & Flyingbolt (210) achieved. Kauto Star's fourth King George victory was as perfect a performance as your likely to see from a modern day chaser. Yet he's still rated a long way behind the top two.

Moscow Flyer is the best 2m chaser I've seen but he'd be destroyed by 20 lengths+ behind Flyingbolt over that distance according to timeform.
 
Agreed Sunybay...Sprinter Sacre has already been a far more impressive 6 year old than Kauto Star was...however,most of you seem to have been sucked in by Timeforms exaggerated rating of Kauto Star !!

Let's be real here...Denman was the better horse for a start...he beat him 3 times out of 4 and but for a debilitating heart problem it would have been 4 out of 4 and Kauto Star won only 2 times from 7 Cheltenham Festival visits and was hardly impressive in beating handicappers Exotic Dancer and Turpin Green who both got within 4 lengths of him in 2007 !

Contrast that with Arkle's demolition job of Mill House and Pas Seul, both previous Gold Cup winners,as well as looking at Arkle's amazing record overall carrying those huge weights where he never fell and only lost 4 times,each with mitigating circumstances,whilst he won 4 times from 4 Cheltenham Festivals and those of us around then KNOW it would have been 7 wins from 7 Festivals but for a premature end to his career aged 9 !

Dunkirk won up to 2 and a half miles and would have destroyed Kauto Star at any distance up to that distance, as of course would Flyingbolt !

Kauto Star fell several times and was pulled up twice whilst he was flogged to beat Imperial Commander a nose,many thought it was a dead-heat,and even L'Ami ran him close at levels !

His record in the King George was tremendous no question,though so was Desert Orchid there,and Kauto never had a French unknown quantity to deal with in the shape of Nupsala who prevented Dessie winning it 5 times also !

It really is an insult to Denman for Timeform to place Kauto Star above him,though it is not the first time their ratings are incorrect ...Lester Piggott is adamant Sir Ivor was the best he rode and Pat Eddery said the same of Golden Fleece,yet both Nijinsky and Dancing Brave were rated above them !

There will always be debate and argument ,especially on the Flat as it can be much harder to call, even though I feel Sea Bird II,Ribot and Frankel are the best 3 I have witnessed there....steeplechasing is more obvious....only one Arkle !!
 
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ArkleSupreme said:
It really is an insult to Denman for Timeform to place Kauto Star above him,though it is not the first time their ratings are incorrect ...Lester Piggott is adamant Sir Ivor was the best he rode and Pat Eddery said the same of Golden Fleece,yet both Nijinsky and Dancing Brave were rated above them !
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I'm a massive Denman fan but Kauto's King George wins were all deserving of a higher figure than Denman ever ran to. As was his second Gold Cup. Denman was a spoiler more than a ratings horse.

Nijinsky and Dancing Brave were better horses. It never matters much what jockey's say.
 
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