The Road to the Punchestown Festival

Tanlic said:
Fook me wish I had a crystal ball......Jezki is CH class is he? Funny I thought he got his ass kicked in novice company at Cheltenham and you got him giving HF a race next year?

For one you can bet your ass WM will run Hurricane Fly only twice prior to the Champion Hurdle next season and he won't meet Our Conor until March

Neither trainer would want a clash/ hard race beforehand if they can avoid it and they will.

Get back in you box and keep eating the sprouts you cheeky upstart
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There will be a number of Grade 1 horses nosing around for opportunities in Ireland. Apart from Solwhit, Jezki and Our Conor I might also have mentioned Champagne Fever, Monksland, Bog Warrior and Annie Power. Thousand Stars will also be around to keep them honest.

There is nothing mickey mouse about these horses, your remark was stupid.
 
chroniclandlord said:
Whatever horses win any of the Morgania, Hatton Grace or Leopardstown Christmas Hurdle next season will have earned their win. None of them will be soft races.
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The top Irish 2m races have tended to be defined as 'soft, largely by those who have under-rated the horses involved in those races.
 
Tanlic said:
Ok you slot him in because I'm damned if I can.

1. Bula.
2. Istabraq.
3. Night Nurse
4. Persian War
5. Comedy of Errors
6. Monksfield
7. Sea Pigeon
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he compares to all of these because of his record. he's in the conversation. i'd imagine it comes down to personal preference where you'd place each. i won't even try as my knowledge doesn't go back as far as yours but he's won 15 grade 1's and 2 champion hurdles. why the heck wouldn't he be in the conversation??
 
Grey said:
There will be a number of Grade 1 horses nosing around for opportunities in Ireland. Apart from Solwhit, Jezki and Our Conor I might also have mentioned Champagne Fever, Monksland, Bog Warrior and Annie Power. Thousand Stars will also be around to keep them honest.

There is nothing mickey mouse about these horses, your remark was stupid.
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Honest?? WM trains Thousand Star on the racecourse, you couldn't find a handicap to bring Hurricane Fly and Zaidpour together and Binocular went there to have a chew at the grass and have look at the people.

Hurricane Fly has won more shyte Grade 1's than I care to count.

Most of the time he beats his own stable companions who are simply being prepared for another day.

Next year could be different but I doubt it unless Jezki eg improves 16-20lbs he will be no sort of threat to Hurricane Fly.

Champange Fever is said to be going chasing so you can forget any challenge from him.

Solwit is now a 3milers. Annie Power is rated 145 and wont go within amile of Hurricane Fly and is more likely to be chasing Quevega's title. Monksland will be heading for the World Hurdle and Bog Warrior will probably go chasing or stick to staying hurdles.

As I said the only horse who might take Hurricane Fly on is Our Conor but common sense tells me that the last thing they want to do is rush him into a clash with him. It is much more likely they will give him all the time they can to strengthen up and wait until March to take him on.

That of course depends how well he does between now and November but the most sensible thing to do would be wait until March.

In this game your feet are for kicking with and your head is for thinking try using them in that order before you call people stupid.:p
 
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JamesRB said:
he compares to all of these because of his record. he's in the conversation. i'd imagine it comes down to personal preference where you'd place each. i won't even try as my knowledge doesn't go back as far as yours but he's won 15 grade 1's and 2 champion hurdles. why the heck wouldn't he be in the conversation??
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There's no doubting he is a model of consistency and WM has placed him well but winning the sort of races he has been winning over years is not the way I would judge him.

I think with Hurricane Fly to work out how good he is, is to look at his Champion Hurdle performances.

To my mind Istabraq would have picked him up and carried him. Hurricane Fly's win over PC was workmanlike Istabraq's first win was pure class, he simply slaughtered them with a burst of speed very few CH winner I have seen since the golden years would have coped with.

Night Nurse Sea Pigeon and Monksfield and of course the ill fated Golden Gygnet were in a different county to what's around today.

To many Bula was the best of them all. He was unreal, in one particular race you would have had a 1000 in running on him as they jumped the last and he took off like a friggin rocket and passed 5 horses like they were trees. When he took off sparks flew and there was nothing workmanlike about it.

Persian War like Istabraq won 4 times at the festival and won one of the best Schweppes Gold Trophies ever run carrying top weight. His owner was a moron and insisted he ran in just about everything he could get him into. He won 3 Champion Hurdles despite that and hand on my heart if he had been trained by PN or Nicky Henderson and the owner had kept his nose out he'd have won 5 Champion Hurdles. His story is well worth reading and really gets it home to you how good a horse he was. Even through the Night Nurse years he was considered by most as the best hurdler in the history of the game but Night Nurse had the ammo around him to take over the mantle of the highest rated,

Comedy of Errors was a beast of a horse with a stride that allowed him to eat up the ground at a rate of knotts very few could match. He beat Bula hand down in the Welsh Champion Hurdle fair and square and gave him a double doze in the Champion proper. Bula was a past his best but some would argue that Comedy of Errors was just a better horse.

Another great hurdler was Salmon Spray he trounced the then Champion Magic Court prior to the Champion Hurdle where he made mincemeat of Flyingbolt. His career was short lived but even he is higher rated than Hurricane Fly.

There have been many many great hurdlers and many who were a lot more impressive when winning the Champion Hurdle than Hurricane Fly IMO

I say IMO but you only need look at the ratings whether it be Timeform or the BHA and I'm afraid Hurricane Fly doesn't appear near the top in either. Not even sure if he is in Timeforms top 20 and if he is it must be by the skin of his teeth. Curently he's rated 173 Night Nurse heads the list on 182 which is a massive difference.

I wish I could go back further and see what Sir ken and Hatton's Grace were like as champions but they were way befor my time.
 
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Anyone guilty of writing-off Hurricane Fly and instead promoting Cinders & Ashes as a credible CH candidate, is surely a basket-case whose musings should really come with a health warning. Certainly, one should ingore everything such lunatics have to say on the subject of where HF sits in the patheon of hurdling greats.
 
As I said the only horse who might take Hurricane Fly on is Our Conor but common sense tells me that the last thing they want to do is rush him into a clash with him. It is much more likely they will give him all the time they can to strengthen up and wait until March to take him on.
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You could be right, they will have to think about sending Our Conor for a mickey mouse race in England if they want to avoid a clash with the best hurdler around.
 
Grey said:
You could be right, they will have to think about sending Our Conor for a mickey mouse race in England if they want to avoid a clash with the best hurdler around.
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Candidate 'Mickey Mouse' races:

Greatwood
Fighting Fifth
Christmas Hurdle
Agfa Hurdle
Haydock Champion Hurdle Trial
Betfair Hurdle

:D
 
Bit unnecessary grass about cinder and ashes You have tipped plenty of rubbish in the past too. Lots of chippy comments on here regarding this horse which is a bit predictable.

I might agree or disagree with tanlic but fair assessment of past winners there.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Candidate 'Mickey Mouse' races:

Greatwood
Fighting Fifth
Christmas Hurdle
Agfa Hurdle
Haydock Champion Hurdle Trial
Betfair Hurdle

:D
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I think the true logic of Tanlic's position is they must all be mickey mouse races apart from the Champion Hurdle itself (in a good year).
 
Isnt the attitude that's causing the snippy comments is that any half decent english handicapper - or something like Countrywide Flame, Cinders and Ashes or Rock on Ruby - could come over to Ireland and mop up the easy Grade 1s like Hurricane Fly is doing against stablemates.

This despite the ones who have tried - Binocular and Rock on Ruby - failing to do so the season just finished.
 
Grey said:
You could be right, they will have to think about sending Our Conor for a mickey mouse race in England if they want to avoid a clash with the best hurdler around.
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Wouldn't disagree with that he'd be better off taking on something like Zarkandar who he'd probably murder for toe than taking on Hurricane Fly.........a couple of hard races against the Fly on heavy ground too soon in his career could ruin him.
 
Grasshopper said:
Anyone guilty of writing-off Hurricane Fly and instead promoting Cinders & Ashes as a credible CH candidate, is surely a basket-case whose musings should really come with a health warning. Certainly, one should ingore everything such lunatics have to say on the subject of where HF sits in the patheon of hurdling greats.
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Scraping the bottom of the barrel there Grassy are we not?

Face facts he won 2 ChampionHurdles in a not to hot era he's very good but rated something like 7 lbs to 9lbs inferior to the best we have seen by experts.

That doesn't mean he's not a very good horse a brilliant one if you like but ffs don't be talking about his Grade 1 wins like they were something special.

Thousand Stars has now raced against him 12 times and never been off a yard in any of them.

Where he does deserve credit is defeats of Solwhit but Solwit himself never proved himself Champion Hurdle class finishing a well beaten 6th to Binocular. As many suspected at the time he was more a stayer than a true Champion Hurdle contender.

Hurricane Fly is a very likable horse he's great to watch beating up his inferiors but comparing him to the likes of Istabraq and getting to the stage you have saying he's better would get you laughed out of Ireland.

Sorry mate but I think you have lost the plot completely but then after the money you won off him I doubt if you give a fu**:lol:
 
I don't really want to get into this, and I certainly don't want to slag off Istabraq, but if you're going to question what HF has beat, then have a look at what Istabraq beat.

Thousand Stars = Theatreworld?
 
BennyB said:
I don't really want to get into this, and I certainly don't want to slag off Istabraq, but if you're going to question what HF has beat, then have a look at what Istabraq beat.

Thousand Stars = Theatreworld?
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Pretty-much encapsulates how I view it, Benny.
 
Yup! and you'll be pleased to know Sneezy, Sleepy, Happy, Grumpy, Bashful, and Doc are also giving me a hard time because they are all Hurricane Fly fans :D
 
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Tanlic said:
His owner was a moron and insisted he ran in just about everything he could get him into. He won 3 Champion Hurdles despite that and hand on my heart if he had been trained by PN or Nicky Henderson and the owner had kept his nose out he'd have won 5 Champion Hurdles.
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He missed a fourth because of foot and mouth.
 
Digger said:
Thousand Stars has "never been off a yard" ?? Really Fist?
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That's a very open question.

Pre Cheltenham I sincerely doubt if Willie Mullins has Hurricane Fly 100% fit and Thousand Stars even less so is what I am saying.

You simply can't have a horse 100% fit all year round and if you tried to come the big day you risk them being over the top.

If Hurricane Fly was 90% fit and Thousand s Stars 100% fit you then take the risk that he could give Hurricane Fly a very hard race which Mullins wouldn't want and Hurricane Fly would probably still beat him anyway.

It would make more sense to have Hurricane Fly slightly ahead of Thousand Stars on the lead up to the Champion Hurdle and WM seems to do it to perfection.

When I say he isn't off what I mean he's not as fit as WM could get him pre Cheltenham. Plus he's not really a 2 miler his best efforts have come at extended distances in the Aintree Hurdle and in France over longer distances late season.

The other day was a classic example when Rock On Ruby left him for dead but then hit a brick wall and Thousand Stars stamina kicked in and he ran on again to finish 2nd.
 
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BennyB said:
I don't really want to get into this, and I certainly don't want to slag off Istabraq, but if you're going to question what HF has beat, then have a look at what Istabraq beat.

Thousand Stars = Theatreworld?
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:lol: The reason I laugh is French Hollow who was pure class was the main rival that year but like many many good horses burned himself out by trying to take on Istabraq leaving himself exhausted and easy picking for the likes of Theatre World. Istabraq was miles clear and won as he liked.....you could have fitted 6 horses in between him and Theatre World with ease.

Istabraq was beaten by Limestone Lad when Charlie Swan made a complete bollocks of it but he absolutely destroyed him on two other occasions and he was a 177 rated horse which puts him ahead of Hurricane Fly never mind Istabraq.

Then of course he hammered Hors La Loi III who won the Supreme by a massive 17 lengths and went on to win the Champion Hurdle.

If Istabraq was around today he'd be 1/2 to win the Champion Hurdle such was his class and he'd have left a horse like Rock On Ruby 15 lengths in his wake before you could bat an eyelid....he was simply awesome and you only need listen to the excitement in the commentators voice to realise how superior he was to the likes of Hurricane Fly.

I've written way too much already on the subject and all I have left to say if anyone thinks Hurricane Fly is anywhere near as good as Istabraq was yer aff yer fookin heid :D
 
I'm not taking anything away from Istabraq, but almost every credible rival he faced in a Champion Hurdle, was inconvenienced by the ridiculously-quick nature of the ground produced by Claisse in those days.
 
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