The Road to the Punchestown Festival

Istabraq was a legend, no doubt about that whatsoever. I haven't been Hurricane Fly's biggest fan over the years, but with 16 grade ones the evidence is getting to be irrefutable that he's up there with the best we've seen.

If the Irish grade ones are soft, why aren't British trainers cleaning up in them?
 
when Best mate won 3 GC's it still didn't make a better rated horse than Denman or Kauto Star

Consistency and ratings are two different things aren't they//if not then Best Mate is better than KS or Denman..as he won 3 GC's
 
EC1 said:
when Best mate won 3 GC's it still didn't make a better rated horse than Denman or Kauto Star

Consistency and ratings are two different things aren't they//if not then Best Mate is better than KS or Denman..as he won 3 GC's
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That's true, EC1..... but if you are consistently winning G1 races, then you are pretty-much de-facto consistently running to a high mark in the process.

The only way this wouldn't be the case, is if you felt those G1 races didn't require the usual amount of winning. It's essentially this accusation that's been levelled at Hurricane Fly by his detractors. Yet the list of G1 winners who have finished behind him is endless?

Here is Hurricane Fly's problem in a nutshell.

He has never been visually-impressive enough at Cheltenham.
 
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I think that we are getting to the stage where only the races at Cheltenham Liverpool & Aintree are really hard G1's to win tbh. But HF has won those..whilst others have not.

I despair a bit with hurdle races these days as even when we get two big guns together..one seems to be there for the run...Binocular in Ireland for instance

It seemed to me in the 70's that there were some very competetive races away from the big festivals..this no longer appears to be the case.

I love the way HF has been campaigned..his admirable consistency has meant that each time he has turned out he has been there to win..and thats the difference between him and the others..its always another day for them isn't it?

Unfortunately ratings don't take that into account..which has always seems unfair to me...consistency is a great trait

I thought HF was visually impressive to look at 2 year ago..whereas this years race looked slow at the end because of how the race panned out..his win this year reminded me of Comedy Of Errors 2nd win..visually.
 
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Something my research has thrown out, EC1.

Hurricane Fly has had at least one other G1-winning-level hurdler in opposition, in all 15 of his runs in open company. Yet most of these races are labelled 'egg-and-spoon' events, where only HF turns up with the intention of winning.

Given how HF is now 2/3 in Champion Hurdles, maybe the form of these 'egg-and-spoon' events stacks-up a little better than some would give credit for?
 
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At the end of the day a race can only be rated off those in oppo..so you could have Night Nurse running nowadays and he would also run in those same races as HF and probably be only rated the same as HF..but when NN ran at the big meetings he posted bigger ratings. I think the only way a top hurdler can get a big rating is by hammering a good field big style in a festival race.

We rate all horses don't we on here and i think generally we aren't far out...and unless someone can go back and rate Istabraq like we do other races now..do same with Night Nurse..we won't get a conclusive answer. So we have to go by TF ratings who have been doing through those periods.

One of the main problems I personally have is that when i got into racing..we were in a golden era for hurdlers..i judge today agaisnt those days and feel disappointed that horses are not campaigned competetively enough now...not including HF as he has turned up to be shot at in G1's..others have dodged
 
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Fair comment EC1.
Also you have NN giving Monksfield 5lb in 77 Templegate Hurdle which does not happen now.
Dont forget they all showed up for |Royal Doulton Hurdle at Haydock and Scottish Champ H a limited handicap.
 
EC1 said:
At the end of the day a race can only be rated off those in oppo..so you could have Night Nurse running nowadays and he would also run in those same races as HF and probably be only rated the same as HF..but when NN ran at the big meetings he posted bigger ratings. I think the only way a top hurdler can get a big rating is by hammering a good field big style in a festival race.

We rate all horses don't we on here and i think generally we aren't far out...and unless someone can go back and rate Istabraq like we do other races now..do same with Night Nurse..we won't get a conclusive answer. So we have to go by TF ratings who have been doing through those periods.

One of the main problems I personally have is that when i got into racing..we were in a golden era for hurdlers..i judge today agaisnt those days and feel disappointed that horses are not campaigned competetively enough now...not including HF as he has turned up to be shot at in G1's..others have dodged
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My Argument against that is that Hurricane Fly was flat to the boards to beat Peddlers Cross and I just can't imagine him finding the extra he would have to have done to catch Istabraq or fend of a hack cantering Sea Pigeon let alone catch Night Nurse who unlike Rock On Ruby didn't stop galloping.

Birds Nest used to get his ass kicked by these horses and how good was he?

You can't just say he hasn't got the opposition to beat to boost his rating you have to use your eyes and judge horses by what they tell you.

People say you can't compare era's but to me that is complete nonsense.

What are those people who think Our Conor will win the Champion Hurdle doing if not using there eyes.? Whether it be a year apart or 20 years apart the way we judge when the form book can't help is exactly the same.

Grassy hit the nail on the head when he said Hurricane Fly hasn't really sparkled in the Champion Hurdle.

Istabraq was awesome in all 3 he won Sea Pigeon just oozed class when he won his duo it's just so difficult to come up with a case for Hurricane Fly when it comes to these horses.

Timeform is of course only an opinion and they very often get it wrong like we all do. Arkle 212 Sprinter Sacre 192 is laughable IMO

I find Night Nurse 182 Hurricane Fly 173 a bit over the top to be honest but not to any great extent He'd certainly have given many other champion hurdlers a lot to think about and beaten the majority of them. Bloody good horse just not the best of the best.
 
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BennyB said:
Istabraq was a legend, no doubt about that whatsoever. I haven't been Hurricane Fly's biggest fan over the years, but with 16 grade ones the evidence is getting to be irrefutable that he's up there with the best we've seen.

If the Irish grade ones are soft, why aren't British trainers cleaning up in them?
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Daft question........Because Hurricane Fly already does that and he is the best hurdler around.


Example: Nicky Henderson had a choice of taking on Coutrywide Flame with Darlan in the Xmas hurdle for 48K or go and take on Hurricane Fly for 46K what would you do?

Your talking like Hurricane Fly doesn't exsist
 
I don't buy the "beating Peddlers Cross is nothing" job though Tanlic.

If you go on what form Peddlers Cross was in leading up to the CH he was a very credible opponent..many fancied he could win it.

The fact he disappointed afterwards is no way to pull the races down he won in that CH year imo
 
Tanlic, you can compare whatever you like on a subjective basis but to do objectively, over a period of time and get it right; well thats the holy grail. One that timeform have been chasing for years.

Most people won't gives a toss about whether you think they are better or worse; you're still entitled to your opinion though :)
 
BennyB said:
They didn't go and mop up the soft grade ones before HF existed.
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For the same reason Hurricane Fly doesn't raid England.......doesn't make sense financially plus 6 of the last 10 CH winners were trained in Ireland.........no one in their right mind would go there and take on Hardy Eustace eg when they can take on lesser apposition at home for more money.

Plus the Ferry goes two ways and Hurricane Fly is no season ticket holder and he's not going to go all the way to England for 2k extra
 
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Tanlic said:
For the same reason Hurricane Fly doesn't raid England.......doesn't make sense financially plus 6 of the last 10 CH winners were trained in Ireland.........no one in their right mind would go there and take on Hardy Eustace eg when they can take on lesser apposition at home for more money.
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You have put the point I was trying to make better that I did.

Now what was that you were saying about soft Irish Grade 1s?
 
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