Grasshopper
Senior Jockey
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Welcome to the club, GH. I knew you'd get here eventually
:lol:
Tingle Creek Chase Sandown Park Sat Dec 4th 2021
- Thread starter Diamond Geezer
- Start date
:lol:
Im with you now actually. Bet he’s fell off Shishkin
Tanlic
Banned member
Nicky Henderson has trained 68 Cheltenham winners 4 less than Mullins. He produced the highest rated Chaser since the 50's and managed to bring him back from the dead and you have the balls to tell him how to train........If he says Shishkin isn't ready he isn't ready. I think you should cast you mind back to when Mullins sent Un Des Sceaux after he took the scalp of Douvan and Henderson let Altior take his chance.
Questioning his bottle V his knowledge and hands on experience is lunacy.
Tanlic
Banned member
It was no such thing. The time of the race was almost identical to the previous year Defi Du Seuil when it was soft and the year before Altior struggled in really soft ground that was bordering on heavy and put up a very slow time. Wasn't that is why Henderson didn't want him to run in it.......You FYI the hurdle course was heavy that day
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The hurdle track at Sanders is always way softer. Hendo bottled it. End of.
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/se...nd-tingle-creek-chase---which-came-out-on-top
Henderson's assertion that the ground was 'heavy' or even very soft just doesn't stack up. Of course testing ground would have been an acceptable reason to pull Altior, but the ground was fine.
Similarly Shishkin not being fit would be an acceptable reason to swerve the Tingle Creek, but if a top trainer can't have a horse ready for a race in December then you have to either question his current competency or his honesty.
Everything relevant about Cheltenham and the best preparation has already been said except for the obvious truth that any horse can suffer an injury or small setback ruling them out in March so it's not like the kid gloves approach even guarantees you get there.
Grasshopper
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Tanlic
Banned member
What a load of ****. The number one trainer if NH horses WPM has withdrawn more horses from big races than you've had hot dinners because they weren't quite ready or had a last minute setback.
Look at how many canters round Douvan or Hurricane Fly had in nothing races and missed out on tougher options at UK tracks.
Mullins sent Huricane Fly out to win the Morgiana at long odds on twice at 1/16 fav in one of them when he could have sent him over for the much tougher International Hurdle worth twice as much.
Was that because he didn't have the bottle or because at that time he wasn't 100% and didn't want him to have a hard race?
If we are being honest we all seen what happened when Kauto Star when ON overdid it and sent him to Ascot 110% where he hacked up then lost to Denman and prompted Ruby to say he was all wrong at Cheltenham and he felt he had left his race at Ascot.
He had run February previously but only won by a neck from L'Ami because he needed the run to get him to peak fitness that year.
I said it once and I'll say it again "It is all about Cheltenham" stuff the Tingle Creek it is totally unimportant whether he runs there or in the Desert Orchid or the Schloer Chase.
What's important as he has the easiest race possible to improve his chances of winning the QMCC.
Training is tougher these days than they were in Arkle's day when you could run in just about anything knowing come Cheltenham nothing even half decent was going to turn up.
barjon
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Lydia Hislop’s take on it all:
Since I wrote the main body of this column, news has broken that Shishkin will not run in the Betfair Tingle Creek on Saturday week. Trainer Nicky Henderson will instead push back the return of last season’s star two-mile novice chaser to the Grade Two Desert Orchid Chase at Kempton over Christmas.
Speaking to the Racing Post, Henderson explained: “There's nothing wrong but Nico [de Boinville, his jockey] and I feel he’s not quite there. He’s never been a brilliant work horse and that makes life difficult in assessing him. I’d love to have been able to work him on grass. The best thing for the horse is not to get chased – I’d have to put the gun to his head a bit too much, I fear [by trying to get him ready for the Tingle Creek].”
He added: “He just hasn’t quite come – it’s as simple as that. He had a brilliant summer and looks a million dollars now... He’s fit enough, but I just don’t feel he’s sparking enough and not quite giving us all the right vibes I’d like to see.
“He’s not injured – we don’t go cantering injured horses. He’s all right, but Nico and I aren’t 100 per cent happy with where he is and you can't go running them when they’re like that. He’s just not where we want him to be at this moment. We want to be at Sandown, but it’s not the right thing to do and I’m not trying to keep him for anything, but he’s not where I want him at the moment and Nico feels the same.”
It is, of course, Henderson’s prerogative – as for any trainer and owner – to decide where and when his horses run. It is part of a trainer’s skillset to judge when to push a horse and when to back off, when to run and when to sit out, with the bigger picture in mind. In this strict sense, Henderson cannot be criticised: he judges Shishkin isn’t ready and so, by his own logic, he should not run.
The problem for British racing comes, however, when so many of the best horses are currently trained in Ireland and the remaining handful from the top-drawer trained over here are collected in so few hands – and yet they continue to be serviced by a bloated race programme. In this context, it becomes an exacerbating factor if one such pair of hands takes a broadly conservative attitude to campaigning.
Yet Henderson absolutely must not shoulder the blame for this crisis – even though so many of us have been openly joking he would surely get the yips about running Shishkin at Sandown ever since Willie Mullins let it slip that one of his Big Three (Chacun Pour Soi, Allaho or Energumene) would be turning up.
Henderson’s quote at the time of Mullins’ announcement was revealing of the underlying issue. “I can see Willie’s point,” he said then. “He’s got two or three [horses] to play with and is going to have to come here with something, otherwise he’ll run out of race in Ireland.” The clear implication is, to Henderson’s mind: if you’ve got three horses, you need three races. God forbid two should ever clash before March – except in the extremis of a King George, perhaps.
Yes, the problem goes far deeper than one trainer. There are too many options, too many dodges, too many paper tigers – primarily in British racing. If it isn’t the ground, it’s the track. If it isn’t the track, it’s the timing. If it isn’t the timing, you can bet your bottom dollar it’ll be something else. Fans are getting bored of it. And, sadly, they’re right to be.
You cannot level a wholly comparable charge in Ireland because its fixture list is much tauter, meaning Irish trainers don’t have the luxury of picking and choosing. Their horses must run where they can and the bigger yards frequently line up more than one horse in a race.
So, remove duplications – among other augmentations – in the British programme book and you would funnel horses together sooner. Might this actually benefit those horses, seasoning them for tougher targets ahead or rationalising their campaigns more appropriately? You know, a bit like the Irish do? (Has that gone well for them, can you tell me?)
In the meantime, why should we expect British racing fans to remain interested in this sport outside of the Cheltenham Festival and Grand National? If they’re not seeing many clashes of quality from May to February, why should they pay hefty enough prices to pass through the turnstiles at racecourses? Why should they switch on ITV Racing? British jump racing needs to be able to answer those questions better than it currently can.
Since I wrote the main body of this column, news has broken that Shishkin will not run in the Betfair Tingle Creek on Saturday week. Trainer Nicky Henderson will instead push back the return of last season’s star two-mile novice chaser to the Grade Two Desert Orchid Chase at Kempton over Christmas.
Speaking to the Racing Post, Henderson explained: “There's nothing wrong but Nico [de Boinville, his jockey] and I feel he’s not quite there. He’s never been a brilliant work horse and that makes life difficult in assessing him. I’d love to have been able to work him on grass. The best thing for the horse is not to get chased – I’d have to put the gun to his head a bit too much, I fear [by trying to get him ready for the Tingle Creek].”
He added: “He just hasn’t quite come – it’s as simple as that. He had a brilliant summer and looks a million dollars now... He’s fit enough, but I just don’t feel he’s sparking enough and not quite giving us all the right vibes I’d like to see.
“He’s not injured – we don’t go cantering injured horses. He’s all right, but Nico and I aren’t 100 per cent happy with where he is and you can't go running them when they’re like that. He’s just not where we want him to be at this moment. We want to be at Sandown, but it’s not the right thing to do and I’m not trying to keep him for anything, but he’s not where I want him at the moment and Nico feels the same.”
It is, of course, Henderson’s prerogative – as for any trainer and owner – to decide where and when his horses run. It is part of a trainer’s skillset to judge when to push a horse and when to back off, when to run and when to sit out, with the bigger picture in mind. In this strict sense, Henderson cannot be criticised: he judges Shishkin isn’t ready and so, by his own logic, he should not run.
The problem for British racing comes, however, when so many of the best horses are currently trained in Ireland and the remaining handful from the top-drawer trained over here are collected in so few hands – and yet they continue to be serviced by a bloated race programme. In this context, it becomes an exacerbating factor if one such pair of hands takes a broadly conservative attitude to campaigning.
Yet Henderson absolutely must not shoulder the blame for this crisis – even though so many of us have been openly joking he would surely get the yips about running Shishkin at Sandown ever since Willie Mullins let it slip that one of his Big Three (Chacun Pour Soi, Allaho or Energumene) would be turning up.
Henderson’s quote at the time of Mullins’ announcement was revealing of the underlying issue. “I can see Willie’s point,” he said then. “He’s got two or three [horses] to play with and is going to have to come here with something, otherwise he’ll run out of race in Ireland.” The clear implication is, to Henderson’s mind: if you’ve got three horses, you need three races. God forbid two should ever clash before March – except in the extremis of a King George, perhaps.
Yes, the problem goes far deeper than one trainer. There are too many options, too many dodges, too many paper tigers – primarily in British racing. If it isn’t the ground, it’s the track. If it isn’t the track, it’s the timing. If it isn’t the timing, you can bet your bottom dollar it’ll be something else. Fans are getting bored of it. And, sadly, they’re right to be.
You cannot level a wholly comparable charge in Ireland because its fixture list is much tauter, meaning Irish trainers don’t have the luxury of picking and choosing. Their horses must run where they can and the bigger yards frequently line up more than one horse in a race.
So, remove duplications – among other augmentations – in the British programme book and you would funnel horses together sooner. Might this actually benefit those horses, seasoning them for tougher targets ahead or rationalising their campaigns more appropriately? You know, a bit like the Irish do? (Has that gone well for them, can you tell me?)
In the meantime, why should we expect British racing fans to remain interested in this sport outside of the Cheltenham Festival and Grand National? If they’re not seeing many clashes of quality from May to February, why should they pay hefty enough prices to pass through the turnstiles at racecourses? Why should they switch on ITV Racing? British jump racing needs to be able to answer those questions better than it currently can.
Grasshopper
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Genuinely hilarious, this.
Firstly, in what Universe would it make sense for Hurricane Fly to travel to the UK to contest a Grade 2, rather than run in a Grade 1 run in his own back yard? Answer = none.
Secondly, only a complete whacko would suggest this is remotely the same scenario as Shishkin swerving a Grade 1 (being run in his own back yard), in favour of..........nothing, other than staying in his barn staring at a bale of fu*cking hay.
The entire post is incoherent drivel, and I'm personally prepared to put it down to Fist mixing up his vitamin tablets with his Viagra.
PS. For the record, The New One was winning those Grade 2 International Hurdles, whilst Hurricane was winning the Grade 1 Morgiana Hurdles "Tougher options", my hole.
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1. The International hurdle meant having to travel for £75k whereas the Morgiana + Leopardstown at Xmas was worth £90k and made for a more coherent season long campaign.
2. We're talking about swerving a race in early December, not one in the middle of February.
3. Even if placing Cheltenham above all else made perfect sense it's still detrimental to the sport. But there is a genuine argument that 2 runs in easy races isn't the ideal prep, plus if the horse can't run in March or turns out not to be quite good enough then chances at winning big races with good prize money were unnecessarily wasted by deciding to leave the horse in it's box.
Tanlic
Banned member
Exactly how far do you want to move the goalpost to come out in front in the debate. How about we add the International and Christmas Hurdle together? The New one just failed to win both for about 130,000 pounds not Euro.
Hurricane Fly was his superior and he could have won both or maybe WPM was scared:lol: My head is reeling at the stupidity of people saying Nicky Henderson has no bottle....The man has won close on 100 major NH races to date and pussies don't do that by hiding in the bushes
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Grasshopper
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What are you blabbering about, Fist.
Give me one good reason why Hurricane Fly should have crossed the water to contest a Grade 2 with less prize-money, rather than stay at home to contest a Grade 1 for more prize-money?
One good reason is all I'm after.........none off this "maybe he was scared" shite.
Give me one good reason why Hurricane Fly should have crossed the water to contest a Grade 2 with less prize-money, rather than stay at home to contest a Grade 1 for more prize-money?
One good reason is all I'm after.........none off this "maybe he was scared" shite.
Tanlic
Banned member
Don't have a reason mate was giving an example on why trainers avoid tough races on the way to Cheltenham if they can.
You should know by now mate I check these things before spouting shyte:lol:
StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle (Grade 1) November 2013
(4yo+) 2m Yielding 9 hurdles
1st €48,000 2nd €15,200 3rd €7,200 4th €2,400 5th €1,60 won by Hurricane Fly
StanJames.com International Hurdle (Grade 2) 14th December 2013
(Class 1) (4yo+) (2m179yds) 2m1f New Good 8 hurdles
1st £74,035 2nd £27,781 3rd £13,910 4th £6,929 5th £3,484 6th £1,742 Won by The New One
The prize money was the same in 2014 despite it being a Grade 1
You should know by now mate I check these things before spouting shyte:lol:
StanJames.com Morgiana Hurdle (Grade 1) November 2013
(4yo+) 2m Yielding 9 hurdles
1st €48,000 2nd €15,200 3rd €7,200 4th €2,400 5th €1,60 won by Hurricane Fly
StanJames.com International Hurdle (Grade 2) 14th December 2013
(Class 1) (4yo+) (2m179yds) 2m1f New Good 8 hurdles
1st £74,035 2nd £27,781 3rd £13,910 4th £6,929 5th £3,484 6th £1,742 Won by The New One
The prize money was the same in 2014 despite it being a Grade 1
G-G
Senior Jockey
I'd be surprised if many, if any, national hunt horses are insured, the cost is ridiculous even for people with money.
Not sure about the comment re 'work him on grass'? I thought the 'Bowl' was open on Lambourn gallops? ( I'm sure that is it's proper name but that's what I have been told it's called) The ground is more than able to stand up to some work on grass considering the weather we've had, and a big surprise that he can't sway to be allowed if not open, although appreciate shouldn't be one rule for one, one rule for others.
I'm a little surprised he's pulled him so soon as well. Could have given an update to say 'we're not sure, he didn't feel, we'll re-assess on'. Last year BBB was aiming for a race on the Thursday at Cheltenham Festival, with the Saturday /Tuesday decs in place; Saturday doesn't get entered, I enquire - told 'he's a bit quiet for him'. MMm I say having seen and heard great work reports 2 days before. 'But we're going to go to Kelso week Monday'. What?? What?? So you think he's not right to run Thursday in 6 days day but you think he will be in 9? Where he'll have top weight - again -on ground he hates - again. I couldn't understand why they didn't declare on the Saturday, see how he was on the Tuesday and then decide ( not a case of entry money, main owner loaded and splits costs anyway ), and even then could declared on the Tuesday and still not run him. I told a trainer about this and he just didn't get it either. He would have gone with my thinking as long as nothing actually wrong with BBB, which there wasn't. So he ran at Kelso, giving a stone, gets beaten 1 1/4 lengths in a totally meaningless race. ( I know he's not a superstar but have to try and progress in career instead of running at same level all the time with top weight. )
Ten days away, anything could happen, no guarantee anyone turns up.
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Beef or Salmon
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What point exactly are you even trying to make, I genuinely have no fcuking clue. Are you in all seriousness using a horse who ran in 30 Grade ones for Mullins, winning 22 grade ones as an example of conservative campaigning, I mean if this is a hoax or an elaborate troll then bravo, otherwise give your head a wobble!
Grasshopper
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A technical detail re the prize-money, Fist, but all other points stand - especially the bit about tougher options in the UK.
Another reason why Hurricane Fly went to Punchestown for the Morgiana was the timing of the race; being around 6-7 week before the December Hurdle at Leopardstown. The Bula/International is run only two weeks before Xmas, and would never have suited from that perspective.
Another reason why Hurricane Fly went to Punchestown for the Morgiana was the timing of the race; being around 6-7 week before the December Hurdle at Leopardstown. The Bula/International is run only two weeks before Xmas, and would never have suited from that perspective.
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Henderson seems more anxious than most to avoid getting horses beaten. He also prefers an easier campaign prior to Cheltenham. This is his prerogative and while it's disappointing for NH racing no-one is blaming him exclusively. If he was honest about this then people would have less of a problem but instead he's publicly bullish until later changing his mind and giving a spurious excuse. This disappoints fans and infuriates punters.
Of course you could say it's predictable and 'fool me once' etc. but with Shishkin being a young horse, who has never really been tested over fences but is still a very short price for the QMCC then this withdrawal is the most surprising yet. Especially as the timing of the Tingle Creek leads nicely into the Victor Chandler at Ascot, leaving plenty of time before March.
Nicky Henderson has hit back at critics of his decision to rule Shishkin out of his intended reappearance in the Betfair Tingle Creek Chase next Saturday and insists there would be no point in running his star unless he could run a "proper race".
Last season's runaway Arkle winner had been expected to make his return in the Sandown Grade 1 next weekend when he would have been set to come against either Chacun Pour Soi, Energumene or Allaho from Willie Mullins' yard, but Henderson announced on Wednesday he would bypass the race as he felt Shishkin was not ready for that assignment.
The decision sparked strong debate among media professionals and on social media, but the Seven Barrows trainer defended his decision on the Racing Post's What A Shout as he believes the exciting seven-year-old would not have been able to do himself justice at the Esher track.
'I feel he's not quite there' – Shishkin ruled out of Tingle Creek comeback
"We get to expect that [backlash]. It doesn't matter how you do it, when you do it. We just figured that it would be easier to make the decision now, let everybody have as much notice as possible. If you leave it to the last minute, you've done it too late," he said.
"Whenever you do it, you're wrong. How can you be wrong? I'm not happy with the horse. If I'm not happy with him, he isn't going to run, simply because he won't run a proper race. What is the point of running him?
"He's had a few issues. He started a bit late because he needed a wind operation and I think we've possibly had to just push a little bit. The ground hasn't helped us either. We weren't happy with his tracheal wash on Monday. It was just a bit murky, a bit of mucus – that is telling us everything."
Henderson received similar criticism last year when he pulled Altior out of the Tingle Creek at the last minute on account of the ground and while he said he was determined to run Joe and Marie Donnelly's star this time, the trainer was frustrated with the response to his decision once again.
"His work was all right but it's not what he's capable of. He's not there yet and you can't push these things. It's like trying to make a rose come out on Christmas Day and it does bug me," he added.
"The only thing that gets me is people who write things who blatantly – absolutely blatantly – know nothing about horses. I invite them to come down and spend a day with us, they'll go home and write a very, very different story, because they just don't understand what happens.
"If a horse isn't 100 per cent, what on earth is the point of running them in a Grade 1 race at this time of the year? It's a long season ahead. I want to run and so does he, I expect, but I'm not happy with him and Nico [de Boinville] wasn't happy with him, so you can't."
Shishkin remains the 7-4 favourite with Betfair and Paddy Power for the Betway Queen Mother Champion Chase at the Cheltenham Festival – the shortest price of any British runners for the four main championship races – and is expected to make his comeback in the Ladbrokes Desert Orchid Chase at Kempton on December 27.
Last season's runaway Arkle winner had been expected to make his return in the Sandown Grade 1 next weekend when he would have been set to come against either Chacun Pour Soi, Energumene or Allaho from Willie Mullins' yard, but Henderson announced on Wednesday he would bypass the race as he felt Shishkin was not ready for that assignment.
The decision sparked strong debate among media professionals and on social media, but the Seven Barrows trainer defended his decision on the Racing Post's What A Shout as he believes the exciting seven-year-old would not have been able to do himself justice at the Esher track.
'I feel he's not quite there' – Shishkin ruled out of Tingle Creek comeback
"We get to expect that [backlash]. It doesn't matter how you do it, when you do it. We just figured that it would be easier to make the decision now, let everybody have as much notice as possible. If you leave it to the last minute, you've done it too late," he said.
"Whenever you do it, you're wrong. How can you be wrong? I'm not happy with the horse. If I'm not happy with him, he isn't going to run, simply because he won't run a proper race. What is the point of running him?
"He's had a few issues. He started a bit late because he needed a wind operation and I think we've possibly had to just push a little bit. The ground hasn't helped us either. We weren't happy with his tracheal wash on Monday. It was just a bit murky, a bit of mucus – that is telling us everything."
Henderson received similar criticism last year when he pulled Altior out of the Tingle Creek at the last minute on account of the ground and while he said he was determined to run Joe and Marie Donnelly's star this time, the trainer was frustrated with the response to his decision once again.
"His work was all right but it's not what he's capable of. He's not there yet and you can't push these things. It's like trying to make a rose come out on Christmas Day and it does bug me," he added.
"The only thing that gets me is people who write things who blatantly – absolutely blatantly – know nothing about horses. I invite them to come down and spend a day with us, they'll go home and write a very, very different story, because they just don't understand what happens.
"If a horse isn't 100 per cent, what on earth is the point of running them in a Grade 1 race at this time of the year? It's a long season ahead. I want to run and so does he, I expect, but I'm not happy with him and Nico [de Boinville] wasn't happy with him, so you can't."
Shishkin remains the 7-4 favourite with Betfair and Paddy Power for the Betway Queen Mother Champion Chase at the Cheltenham Festival – the shortest price of any British runners for the four main championship races – and is expected to make his comeback in the Ladbrokes Desert Orchid Chase at Kempton on December 27.
I don't pretend to know more than Nicky Henderson. However, I feel it's the pattern we have seen in recent times that is making this hard for racing fans to swallow. He's just got an awful lot of history with this sort of stuff now.
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Grasshopper
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It's actually a different old, old story, reet; namely the one where Henderson says the horse is "Ready to roll" out one side of his mouth, only to say "He came in late, I've had to rush, the ground has held us up" out of the other side of his mouth, a handful of days later.
He is full of sh*it.
Beef or Salmon
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The ability to spot a bullshitter who has complete contempt for the racing public has very little to do with knowing better than the trainer.