Tingle Creek Chase Sandown Park Sat Dec 4th 2021

Beef or Salmon said:
The ability to spot a bullshitter who has complete contempt for the racing public has very little to do with knowing better than the trainer.
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This. I don’t think anyone is questioning Nicky’s training ability or phenomenal success historically Nor is his judgment being questioned

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Beef or Salmon said:
What point exactly are you even trying to make, I genuinely have no fcuking clue. Are you in all seriousness using a horse who ran in 30 Grade ones for Mullins, winning 22 grade ones as an example of conservative campaigning, I mean if this is a hoax or an elaborate troll then bravo, otherwise give your head a wobble!
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Bliss spring to mind...........:whistle:
 
Grasshopper said:
It's actually a different old, old story, reet; namely the one where Henderson says the horse is "Ready to roll" out one side of his mouth, only to say "He came in late, I've had to rush, the ground has held us up" out of the other side of his mouth, a handful of days later.

He is full of sh*it.
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https://twitter.com/i/status/1463494862251175938 read it and weep Grassy:lol:
 
Also in case anyone hadn't noticed Henderson can't even keep his story straight. First it was the wind op that had put him behind; then the horse was fit but didn't sparkle in a piece of work. We've even had a 'murky' tracheal wash thrown in for good measure along with "he'd be ruined for life" as the convincer that the trainer must know best.

It seems most likely he was bullish in an attempt to prevent Mullins from sending Chacun over, then we got word his bluff had failed he pulled Shishkin because it's his preference for an easier campaign. Nicky needs me as his PR man; "We were a bit behind due to the wind op and the dry weather so I couldn't get a prep run in. Then his recent work just wasn't good enough for me to want to pitch him straight into a Grade One out of novice company. He's a young horse (always have to sneak this in when you can) so I'm taking a long term view and he'll have a steadier build up to his main target this season before hopefully being ready to take in all the big races next year."
 
No-one is saying they know more about training racehorses than Nicky Henderson, reet.

What’s being discussed is the completely contradictory statements he has issued regarding Shishkin, and the general theme of him preferring soft options for his horses wherever possible - which does him absolutely no credit.
 
For Pete's sake what is it you don't understand about horses not being machines. Nicky Henderson is fuming at those who are criticizing him for making this decision and no wonder.

He clearly stated the horse simply wasn't pleasing him on Saturday morning unlike the week before.

In his current condition he does not want him to have a hard race which could set him back for the rest of the season.

Time to accept the man at his word and move on to other things you know more about.
 
Grasshopper said:
No-one is saying they know more about training racehorses than Nicky Henderson, reet.

What’s being discussed is the completely contradictory statements he has issued regarding Shishkin, and the general theme of him preferring soft options for his horses wherever possible - which does him absolutely no credit.
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Nay,Grass - the clear implication is that Nicky is lying about the horse, and a host of worthies know it.
It's not at all unusual for a traner to be upbeat about a horse early season, then encounter a problem before a big day. Apparently, the tracheal wash confirmed what he and Nico already suspected; the horse wasn't ready to do himself justice in what's likely to be a hot race. Who's likely to know better than trainer, jockey and vet?
NH might not give full chapter and verse on his horse's welbeing before a race. but you'd be hard pushed to name a trainer who's completely open at such times.
 
ep1987 said:
Also in case anyone hadn't noticed Henderson can't even keep his story straight. First it was the wind op that had put him behind; then the horse was fit but didn't sparkle in a piece of work. We've even had a 'murky' tracheal wash thrown in for good measure along with "he'd be ruined for life" as the convincer that the trainer must know best.

It seems most likely he was bullish in an attempt to prevent Mullins from sending Chacun over, then we got word his bluff had failed he pulled Shishkin because it's his preference for an easier campaign. Nicky needs me as his PR man; "We were a bit behind due to the wind op and the dry weather so I couldn't get a prep run in. Then his recent work just wasn't good enough for me to want to pitch him straight into a Grade One out of novice company. He's a young horse (always have to sneak this in when you can) so I'm taking a long term view and he'll have a steadier build up to his main target this season before hopefully being ready to take in all the big races next year."
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I appreciate your posts but c'mon you are now in the land of total fantasy. This is not a game of poker where you can bluff.

If Nicky was bluffing why pull out so early. WPM could have spoken with him to say his intentions were to run but he has pulled more horses out at the last minute from big races than you've had hot dinners.

This is not about the Tingle Creek that was only one of 4 options Nicky had. It's about getting the horse to Cheltenham in tip top condition if at all possible and no one this side of the water does it better than him.

He is a genius when you look at it and compare him to other top trainers.

He has won 3 times as many Festival races as Paul Nichols in the last 3 years and had twice as many horses placed.

You can post as much fantasy as you like but you will never convince me that Nicky fears any trainer,

Only thing he fears is the damage silly decisions can do to a good horse
 
No-one has accused him lying, reet. The accusation is one of inconsistency.

Henderson was quoted in the Post last week that Shishkin was “ready to roll”. A few days later, he claims he has had to rush the horses prep, and he isn’t ‘sparking’. A day later, we hear about a poor scope.

I understand fully about horses not being machines (to address Fist’s rather obvious point), and have already said I would have shrugged it off as unfortunate with practically every other trainer.

But when it comes to Henderson, a pattern has developed over the last few years, where he issues contradictory l updates about his horses a few more times than is healthy……and he has absolutely, unquestionably, developed a habit of ducking challenges/difficult races, outside of the main Festivals. We all saw it - nay predicted it - with Altior last season, when he was pulled from the Tingle Creek because of “Heavy ground” that was nothing of the sort.

I have no axe to grind with Nicky Henderson. He has always been one of my favourite trainers, but nowadays, he needs a squiggle next to his name, and I find that quite lamentable, to be honest.
 
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I think plenty were accusing Henderson of lying. The accusation of lying was due to several claiming that the real reason for Shiskin's absence was nothing to do with tracheal washes, how sparky he was, or whatever he said Nicky, but that Willie was sending a proper challenger. (which he hasnt given as a reason).
 
I said earlier that I thought that Cheltenham has increasingly become the be all and end all for Henderson and he won’t risk anything that might affect the preparation of his horses. I suppose he’s not alone in that and much as I love Cheltenham I think it has become far too dominant in the overall scheme of things. I do want to see these horses race in proper races - and not just once a year.
 
I think the line that has become blurred over the years is the one where trainers wrap a fragile horse in cotton wool, just to ensure they can run at Cheltenham, and the now common practice where trainers wrap a good horse in cotton wool, just to ensure they can run at Cheltenham. Are we going back to Hen Knight and Best Mate, where this latter practice all started?
 
Tanlic said:
You can post as much fantasy as you like but you will never convince me that Nicky fears any trainer,

Only thing he fears is the damage silly decisions can do to a good horse
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Never said he 'feared Mullins' or anything like that. We all seem to agree that Henderson wants to be cautious with an eye on getting his top horses to Cheltenham 100%. This is happening against the backdrop of growing disillusionment with the lack of big clashes before the festival (which is a wider problem). Ultimately as you say, you either have to take Nicky at his word (even though it hasn't been consistent, for which there may be other reasons) or take the view that the presence of a top horse in the race has changed his mind and he doesn't want to admit this.

With regard to his record in March; his early season campaigning hasn't always been this careful and he has some great raw material to work with so it will be difficult to draw conclusions as to the pros and cons of a lighter race programme.

Everyone seems entrenched in their position as to whether the spectre of a tough early season race with Chacun is the main reason for the switch to the Desert Orchid so let's just agree that Henderson doesn't want Shishkin to have a hard race in early December and agree to disagree on the rationale and perhaps the amount of hot dinners people have consumed.
 
“ First things first, Chacun Poir Soi will definitely run in the Betfair Tingle Creek Chase at Sandown next week – I haven’t decided about my other entries yet.” WM
 
I doubt it will happen but wouldn't it be good if Willie Mullins declared Energemene for this. In his stable tour he states they want to keep him at two miles as much as possible.

It would add some spice to this race wouldn't it? I'd give him a better chance of beating the fav than Greaneteen or Nube Negra.

The John Durkan is the next day on Sunday obviously.
 
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Marb said:
I doubt it will happen but wouldn't it be good if Willie Mullins declared Energemene for this. In his stable tour he states they want to keep him at two miles as much as possible.

It would add some spice to this race wouldn't it? I'd give him a better chance of beating the fav than Greaneteen or Nube Negra.

The John Durkan is the next day on Sunday obviously.
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Chacun - Tingle Creek
Allaho - John Durkan
Energumene - Hilly Way
 
Hmmm. He's shorter in the betting with most firms for the Champion Chase than Chacun. Time will tell. Maybe your right.
 
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The betting is a but topsy turvy at the moment

I am sure Chacun will hack up on Saturday and we'll se a big move in the market.

Nicky is certainly not as confident as he was with Sprinter or Altior

One of Mullins will no doubt go elsewhere....Ryanair?
 
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