US Presidential election 2016
- Thread starter Warbler
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EC1
On a break
if it were the 60's Dave ...they would be planting him in the ground today or tomorrow with his hair shoved up his harris
there is no way on earth a man like Trump would have lived a week beyond election in the 60s....it was like the fookin wild west out there over the atlantic in those days..ooh he seems to speak for the masses..bang...ooh he seems to want to change things..bang
i hope his protection is good..then again..the angriest people get now is some stroppy twatter comment..the actual act of shooting someone is left to movies and eastenders
there is no way on earth a man like Trump would have lived a week beyond election in the 60s....it was like the fookin wild west out there over the atlantic in those days..ooh he seems to speak for the masses..bang...ooh he seems to want to change things..bang
i hope his protection is good..then again..the angriest people get now is some stroppy twatter comment..the actual act of shooting someone is left to movies and eastenders
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EC1
On a break
i been laughing today at a country who wants to try and spread its "democracy" to countries who haven't got such an "advantage"..and what do i see?..loads of folk complaining and demonstrating / rioting...coz they didn't get their way...bless..so much for "democracy" eh?
The freedom to choose, and of course the freedom to speech, which I assume extends to the freedom to express your view. Having said that though, you do need to be careful. Freedom's only extend so far in Spain it appears. You see, you shouldn't mock Rajoy, he doesn't like it, and is now exploring the legality of it. This puts him in the same category of Erdogan in Turkey of course
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...t-politicians-from-the-internet-a7411566.html
Don't worry though, the internet is awash with American's offering to do any political memes for you. All you have to do is nominate the politicians name and they'll do it for you
Make Marbella Great Again
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I think one of the things about the US (Fox News in particular) is that the presenters compete against each other. As I've already alluded to, Megyn Kelly was pretty well protesting to her viewers that Trump wouldn't do interviews for her, but would do them for Sean Hannity (because Hannity gives him a soft time). Bill O'Reilly and Bret Baier could probably get him on too.
I read an article recently that chronicled how Ivanka Trump had stormed out of an interview. Was it a heavy news interview? Was it a hard hitting deep probe of the Trump policies? was it even a political heavyweight? No. It was a features writer from Cosmopolitan. Frigging Cosmo for crying out loud who were putting the tough questions. Basically it seems that Ivanka had made claims about child care provision in the Trump programme that didn't stand up and the journo pulled for her them. At this point she denounced the questioning as hostile and terminated the interview. The article concluded that because Cosmo only get one shot at a major Trump surrogate they can afford to push the boundaries a bit and treat them accordingly. They aren't dependent on the mark agreeing to another interview a month later, so decide to soft soap them instead.
What does the future look like? I don't know. Possibly more citizen TV and things like the Young Turks. If news services are too scared to hold politicians to account for fear that they'll no longer appear on their shows and that their ratings will plummet, then the media needs to find new ways of interogating them
As regards the context, yes these are strange times, and in truth, the portents from the pages of history aren't good.
Personally I can't believe that there isn't an economic undercurrent to a lot of it (its not the only reason) but I can't think of a time when you see this level of disorientation and people reaching out for radical changes of direction when there hasn't been an economic driver deeply embeded in it. I think there's a lot more concealed issues that the economic data is reporting. Politicians have contented themselves with data that they want to hear rather than dig into the detail of it and work out what the subtext is. Basically if times are good, you don't get discontent outside of specific subject based protest
I think the residue of the credit crunch and the non recovery, allied with aggressive migration that has disrupted the natural equilibrium are the two big factors. I also feel that people are losing confidence in governmental institutions to operate in their interests too, so those who like to believe they're the solution are now being held to be part of the problem
gigilo
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I'm sure the black poor communitys in texas will take great solace from seeing trump elected and the 6% of black women that voted for him,very interesting that 54% of white American women voted for him I would imagine if he stood here he'd be lucky to get 10% insane stuff these white women in America are they really that thick.Think the 6% of black women tells you a lot of what's going to happen there over the next 3/4 years especially if he does absolutely nothing,which of course he won't,he's even come out now saying how wonderful bill and Hilary Clinton are ffs and Obama.Really is fantastical stuff..
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This is an interesting article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-truth_politics
Other than to enjoy the supplementary tactile pleasure of 'reading with your hands' engendered by wrapping oneself around a broadsheet, of which only the Daily Telegraph and Yorkshire Post are available in my neck of the woods following the tragic demise of the best of the lot - The Sporting Life, the sooner the agenda-ridden and indoctrinating 'free' press disappear the better as far as I'm concerned
They all profess to lean one way or another politically and hence each is chosen by an individual of a similar leaning to bolster his or her beliefs. Feed them what they want to read and they'll believe it
Alluring, seducing well-crafted prose chock full of biased half-truths
Don't believe what you read in the papers...hey-ho
There's a number of fact checking websites around, which are a mixed bunch probably needing in turn a 'fact checking the fact checkers' website, but nevertheless worthwhile:
http://factcheckeu.org/factchecks
http://www.snopes.com/
https://fullfact.org/
http://www.factcheck.org/
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This is the crux of the matter, Drone. I would like to pick upon this point and add some.
People buy political orientated papers to "bolster" their outlooks, as you rightly say. Hence the newspaper, rather than a beacon of objectivity, becomes an endorsement for an individuals social, political, economic viewpoint and convictions.
This is nothing new of course, but in this mega-globalised world, with so many cultures and social stratafications mixing together, there is a segment of society that needs their views demonstrated and represented.
They have tended to be your typical Daily Mail reader (I think), but are increasingly your left leaning person as well. The left need their views reinforced, and why wouldn't they?
Anyhow, here's a basic question....
Did The Daily Mail make that person hate Muslims, or did they hate Muslims already???
Did Donald Trump divide America, or actually did he simply reflect that America is already divided???
Speaking hypothetically, did that porno, Hollywood movie or Eminem song make me sick, or was I already sick?
To summarise, if politics is indeed an art form, we need to accept that Politian's like Trump and Farage are reflecting a public want and desire.
They do give oxygen to sensationalism, and hence journalistically everything reported about them is journalistically sensationalist too, but they are NOT exclusively responsible for every 'nut job' who does an act of madness, (if you get my drift).
They represent and reflect the anger, but they are not the root or cause of it...
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It's worth noting the potential impact that algorithmic filtering of information is having in the social media sphere. Every time you share, like, or fill in one of these banal Facebook 'what type of fuirt do you most resemble' surveys, its helping build a profile that determines what information you want to recieve rather than what you might need to know. People using social media are in effect building their own echo chambers and only being fed information that they've expressed a reception for
EC1
On a break
i wouldn't be worrying about algorithms Warb..people's mindsets are not that hard to comprehend
i see lots of white women in this country horrified that he has been elected..and yet when it comes down to it..if you can't get a job and the money is tight..whether someone is sexist or not don't enter the equation..if someone..no matter what their views offers you a better chance of getting more food on the table..you vote em in..no fookin algorithims required..its just called surviving with a bit more than you had before
you way overcomplicate what are basic human instincts imo
i see lots of white women in this country horrified that he has been elected..and yet when it comes down to it..if you can't get a job and the money is tight..whether someone is sexist or not don't enter the equation..if someone..no matter what their views offers you a better chance of getting more food on the table..you vote em in..no fookin algorithims required..its just called surviving with a bit more than you had before
you way overcomplicate what are basic human instincts imo
G-G
Senior Jockey
I said a couple of weeks before the election that if he won, someone would take a pop at him before the inauguration on Jan 20th
The year doesn't end in a one. Bit like Tottenham winning anything, nothing will happen, unless he, goodness forgives, wins a second term.
gigilo
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Already keeping Obamacare to a certain degree,good to see he's put three of his family in administration this has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen.perhaps they could do a series like the osbournes but in the whitehouse, maybe he will designate the KKK to race relations as well.I wonder when his thoughts will turn to the 94% of black women that didn't vote for him,obviously a lot more groping opportunities from the 54% of white women who obviously aren't bothered,perhaps they like it well that's how he will be thinking anyway!Can't wait for this to play out,putins going to eat him up then spit him out...
There's a quite strong New York influence in some of the names being bandied about, and if you stretch it out a state or two, a distinct yankee land bias once you take in NJ (Christie) and RI (Flynn). Even John Bolton is (MD). It's a definite eastern seaboard bias
Mildly amused to see Boris Johnson desperately back pedalling today and frantically trying to signal that he won't be taking part in tomorrows emergency EU meeting. 'Please notice Mr Trump, I know I called you unfit etc but please notice that I'm sucking up to you now'. Meanwhile the first European politician to be granted an auidence is Nigel Farage, who has reminded the media that some of the British government have fences to mend (clear reference to Boris)
Having said that, we must be in a better position than we were under Obama anyway, as the German's are telling us we're deluded if we think that we are (whilst scrambling off to the emergency meeting themselves). And Juncker has continued the EU led barrage of insults suggesting that we're all going to have to waste two years whilst Trump learns about Europe. Yep, that'll go down well. Trump listens to career politicians and is bound to back off when Juncker speaks! I wouldn't worry Juncker, he's getting a fast track briefing in Trump Tower this evening from Farage!
Mildly amused to see Boris Johnson desperately back pedalling today and frantically trying to signal that he won't be taking part in tomorrows emergency EU meeting. 'Please notice Mr Trump, I know I called you unfit etc but please notice that I'm sucking up to you now'. Meanwhile the first European politician to be granted an auidence is Nigel Farage, who has reminded the media that some of the British government have fences to mend (clear reference to Boris)
Having said that, we must be in a better position than we were under Obama anyway, as the German's are telling us we're deluded if we think that we are (whilst scrambling off to the emergency meeting themselves). And Juncker has continued the EU led barrage of insults suggesting that we're all going to have to waste two years whilst Trump learns about Europe. Yep, that'll go down well. Trump listens to career politicians and is bound to back off when Juncker speaks! I wouldn't worry Juncker, he's getting a fast track briefing in Trump Tower this evening from Farage!
All's fair in love, war and election campaigns
What is said and written by politicians, be that about policy, other politicians, or...anything during campaigns is best ignored, or if not that, then quickly forgotten once the election is over
The media love rehashing ad hominem, faux pas and false promises as they presumably believe that the proletariat lap it up
Election campaigns are superficial, tawdry, unedifying, dishonest and hubristic events that with each passing one plumb ever-deeper depths of dirt
We're all friends now, don't mention the war, there's a world to govern
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I wouldn't under estimate the capacity of Trump to bear a grudge on a personal level. Policy I think he's more fluid on (largely because I'm not sure he has many). What he has instead is half thought out opinions, but he does have a few which he seems more committed to than others
Reading the Sunday Telegraph today its quite amusing to see how badly wrong footed the FCO are. They just don't seem to be on the page at all. Basically for years the office has probably generated its own mutually reinforcing orthodoxy which probably functions as a circle jerking echo chamber. I'm also far from convinced that British public opinion is as vehemently anti Russian with regards to Syria as the FCO says it is. To be honest, it's never really been surveyed, but there's no shortage of social media comment you'll find, plus what I hear myself, that is mildly supportive of what Russia has been doing in Syria. The whole idea that this is a battle between plucky pro democratic rebels and evil Assad allied with the Soviet Union has fallen apart (it fell apart years ago in truth) it's only now that people are beginning to accept it on a larger scale.
I'd be reaosnably confident that if the British public were given a choice to prioritise Assad or ISIS most would nominate ISIS as their choice target, and wouldn't be particularly concerned how it was dealt with (the Trump position)
Reading the Sunday Telegraph today its quite amusing to see how badly wrong footed the FCO are. They just don't seem to be on the page at all. Basically for years the office has probably generated its own mutually reinforcing orthodoxy which probably functions as a circle jerking echo chamber. I'm also far from convinced that British public opinion is as vehemently anti Russian with regards to Syria as the FCO says it is. To be honest, it's never really been surveyed, but there's no shortage of social media comment you'll find, plus what I hear myself, that is mildly supportive of what Russia has been doing in Syria. The whole idea that this is a battle between plucky pro democratic rebels and evil Assad allied with the Soviet Union has fallen apart (it fell apart years ago in truth) it's only now that people are beginning to accept it on a larger scale.
I'd be reaosnably confident that if the British public were given a choice to prioritise Assad or ISIS most would nominate ISIS as their choice target, and wouldn't be particularly concerned how it was dealt with (the Trump position)
As unpalatable as it may be, I think Thresea May would be well advised to listen to Nigel Farage
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37965089
"bring me the head of Boris Johnson"
Farage is right, the UK has been dealt a lucky hand here, if they have the wit to know how to play it. In addition to Trump, they also have a massive anglophile close to him in Rudy Gulliani in particular, plus the Trump family, and General Flynn. There is such a thing called 'realpolitik' let's see if Thresea May understands it (I suspect she doesn't)
Not only in trade are things starting to shift of course, but also in areas of defence. Europe is suddenly realising they're a little bit exposed to an American wind down. At the very least they're going to have pay up. In a couple of years the UK will have the most powerful navy in Europe and will be flying F35's. With the exception of France, no other European country really has the capacity to put a credible/ experienced modern military into field, albeit I'd accept Germany could do so relatively quickly once they begin to update their stock and go back to maintaining it. The UK might have a chip to put down here. What else does Europe have outside of these three, Italy and Spain? Come on.
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I have to say that I've been thinking of it all in terms of a reality show; it somehow makes it more bearable.
I'm trying to console myself with the lessons from history
Every autocratic politician/ leader I can think of has concentrated on domestic opponents first. Trump's first 'victims' are most likely to be American's (and ISIS, who personally I'd let the Russians's have a full run at)
Trump has also exhibited a tendancy get embroilled in petty detail and points of imaginary principle. There has to be a chance he can be sidetracked
The American's have of course spent decades defending their precious second ammendment which is supposed to the protect them against an abusive government. I don't actually have any faith in that though. Any attempt to mobilise along those lines will be quickly wiped out. However, America isn't a parliamentary democracy. America is a constitutional republic, which means there are hurdles in the way that are supposed to be able to curtail the ambitions of a President who goes cuckoo, and the 'tyranny of the masses'. I wouldn't have implicit faith in these to work either, but they may act as a brake. Even so a President who has the support of both houses (as Trump does) can still do a lot of damage, but they don't wield absolute power
Finally, the UK is actually quite well positoned (provided we don't foul it up) but we're going to have to know our place. Trump behaves a little bit like a medieval monarch demanding you pay homage to him (Boris Johnson please note). So long as we accept our place in the pecking order, we can prosper underneath the behmoth, but that's going to mean swallowing a few wounded pride pills. In any event, however concerned we might be, spare a thought for the EU!!!
Yep ... yesterday they convened an emergency meeting of foreign ministers to try and understand what is happening, whilst Trump royally entertained Nigel Farage. If there's one image of 2016 it has to be those two posing together in Trump tower.
The world's turned upside down (again)
Every autocratic politician/ leader I can think of has concentrated on domestic opponents first. Trump's first 'victims' are most likely to be American's (and ISIS, who personally I'd let the Russians's have a full run at)
Trump has also exhibited a tendancy get embroilled in petty detail and points of imaginary principle. There has to be a chance he can be sidetracked
The American's have of course spent decades defending their precious second ammendment which is supposed to the protect them against an abusive government. I don't actually have any faith in that though. Any attempt to mobilise along those lines will be quickly wiped out. However, America isn't a parliamentary democracy. America is a constitutional republic, which means there are hurdles in the way that are supposed to be able to curtail the ambitions of a President who goes cuckoo, and the 'tyranny of the masses'. I wouldn't have implicit faith in these to work either, but they may act as a brake. Even so a President who has the support of both houses (as Trump does) can still do a lot of damage, but they don't wield absolute power
Finally, the UK is actually quite well positoned (provided we don't foul it up) but we're going to have to know our place. Trump behaves a little bit like a medieval monarch demanding you pay homage to him (Boris Johnson please note). So long as we accept our place in the pecking order, we can prosper underneath the behmoth, but that's going to mean swallowing a few wounded pride pills. In any event, however concerned we might be, spare a thought for the EU!!!
Yep ... yesterday they convened an emergency meeting of foreign ministers to try and understand what is happening, whilst Trump royally entertained Nigel Farage. If there's one image of 2016 it has to be those two posing together in Trump tower.
The world's turned upside down (again)
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He's had to pay back millions of dollars to people that studied at some sort of rubbish university of his [don't know the details]. Seems that Sadiq Khan has upset him; no surprise there; I'd imagine his very existence hurts Trumps brain [I use that word loosely].
EC1
On a break
as despicable as people see him..he could be very good for us economically
in 5 years time..we may look back and think..wasn't that good timing..us coming out of Europe just when Trump got elected..now they struggling and we are in clover
it could happen like that..Trump..could be our Trump card to make brexit work
i generally feel with current government that brexit is not a good thing...all this stupid secrecy is a bollox..they should invoke article 50 tomorrow and get away from them if that is what is going to happen..this 2 year bollox is not good for our businesses re uncertainty..it wants sorting now..we want out of teh customs union as well...there are so many markets out there to tap.
for instance..i heard yesterday that India are whisky connoisseurs..i didn't know that..but if we got out of the customs union then there is enough demand from India alone to keep the Whisky industry going full time forever
thats just one instance..the only way to turn this round is to get out quickly now and get trade agreements sighned up..Trump is there for teh picking..if treated correctly..thats a massive plus for us..its time folk stopped worrying about what he drops out his gob and started thinking about us moving forward economically. You don't need to like people that can help you is my thinking.
All this Hilary love bemuses me..by love i mean folk wanting her winning..which would have been really bad for us....she would have had us at the back of the queue..yes she don't talk offensive..but she is no real friend of ours..time may show that of the two..Trump is a saving grace for us
in 5 years time..we may look back and think..wasn't that good timing..us coming out of Europe just when Trump got elected..now they struggling and we are in clover
it could happen like that..Trump..could be our Trump card to make brexit work
i generally feel with current government that brexit is not a good thing...all this stupid secrecy is a bollox..they should invoke article 50 tomorrow and get away from them if that is what is going to happen..this 2 year bollox is not good for our businesses re uncertainty..it wants sorting now..we want out of teh customs union as well...there are so many markets out there to tap.
for instance..i heard yesterday that India are whisky connoisseurs..i didn't know that..but if we got out of the customs union then there is enough demand from India alone to keep the Whisky industry going full time forever
thats just one instance..the only way to turn this round is to get out quickly now and get trade agreements sighned up..Trump is there for teh picking..if treated correctly..thats a massive plus for us..its time folk stopped worrying about what he drops out his gob and started thinking about us moving forward economically. You don't need to like people that can help you is my thinking.
All this Hilary love bemuses me..by love i mean folk wanting her winning..which would have been really bad for us....she would have had us at the back of the queue..yes she don't talk offensive..but she is no real friend of ours..time may show that of the two..Trump is a saving grace for us
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If the UK is able to a deal with the US then the impacts of Brexit will be diluted, but second guessing how Trump goes on this isn't easy. My own suspicion is that he might be prepared to give us half decent terms in his game of corporate strategy, as he'll see Europe as a competitor rather than a partner, and seemingly rewarding the UK undermines the EU. If he appoints Bolton as SoS he also gets a confirmed Eurosceptic. Guilliani is an alternative, and he's pretty anglophile, albeit I've got this sneaking feeling Rudy might end up as the ambassador to the UN (the irony! - given that he waged a war against them about unpaid parking tickets for years)
I suspect any deal with the US is likely to come down to access to the NHS which their health companies would love a piece of, and that's when it'll get heated. Obviously TTIP was floundering on food safety, but my own guess is the UK might be prepared to be a little bit more flexible here than the EU. I don't think it's quite the hot potato for us, albeit we've had no shortage of scandals from BSE to horse burgers. My biggest concern though would be sugar levels and America's penchant for loading their food with the stuff
I wouldn't be too confident of getting a deal out of India though. They're pretty protectionist. Perhaps we could make Kevin Pietersen a trade ambassador!
I suspect any deal with the US is likely to come down to access to the NHS which their health companies would love a piece of, and that's when it'll get heated. Obviously TTIP was floundering on food safety, but my own guess is the UK might be prepared to be a little bit more flexible here than the EU. I don't think it's quite the hot potato for us, albeit we've had no shortage of scandals from BSE to horse burgers. My biggest concern though would be sugar levels and America's penchant for loading their food with the stuff
I wouldn't be too confident of getting a deal out of India though. They're pretty protectionist. Perhaps we could make Kevin Pietersen a trade ambassador!
EC1
On a break
tbh Warb..i am starting to think we can make good out of it..i just hope that May doesn't go cap in hand to them..it really does need to be..right..we out..lets get it sorted
i'd be looking for no favours from the euro twits..i'd be..lets get free and get stuck in..article 50..get it started..and lets get off the euro titanic before it goes down..and if Trump gets his way..thats where its going..its a lost cause..and history may tell that what we have got out..just in time
i'd be looking for no favours from the euro twits..i'd be..lets get free and get stuck in..article 50..get it started..and lets get off the euro titanic before it goes down..and if Trump gets his way..thats where its going..its a lost cause..and history may tell that what we have got out..just in time
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Europe's got quite a few problems on the horizon
On Dec 4th the Austrians could well elect a neo nazi who doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the Austrian state but sees it as part of some greater Germanic empire. On the same weekend the Italians, egged on by their '5 star' movement, could well deliver a referendum verdict that will see Matteo Renzi's government fall, and perhaps turn the spotlight again on the hideously perilous position that so many Italian banks find themselves in with something like 20% of their loan books non-performing. The Euro has been crippling for Italy
Next year of course we'll see the French election. In theory Marienne Le Pen shouldn't win. Her best bet would come from opposing Sarkozy, but as of tonight, he looks like having been knocked out. One suspects that Alain Juppe will beat her in the second round something like 66/33, but 33% of the French population voting for the Natuonal Front is hardly a sign of health, nor is it a vote of confidence in the EU
We might see similar showings in the Dutch election too, albeit 15% is probably the most that Wilders can hope for, or the AfD when Germany has their turn
I'm half minded to give the Donald his own thread now actually, as clearly we're going to be in for a rollercoaster on the Trump train
On Dec 4th the Austrians could well elect a neo nazi who doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the Austrian state but sees it as part of some greater Germanic empire. On the same weekend the Italians, egged on by their '5 star' movement, could well deliver a referendum verdict that will see Matteo Renzi's government fall, and perhaps turn the spotlight again on the hideously perilous position that so many Italian banks find themselves in with something like 20% of their loan books non-performing. The Euro has been crippling for Italy
Next year of course we'll see the French election. In theory Marienne Le Pen shouldn't win. Her best bet would come from opposing Sarkozy, but as of tonight, he looks like having been knocked out. One suspects that Alain Juppe will beat her in the second round something like 66/33, but 33% of the French population voting for the Natuonal Front is hardly a sign of health, nor is it a vote of confidence in the EU
We might see similar showings in the Dutch election too, albeit 15% is probably the most that Wilders can hope for, or the AfD when Germany has their turn
I'm half minded to give the Donald his own thread now actually, as clearly we're going to be in for a rollercoaster on the Trump train