15 Year Old Guilty Of Murder

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Originally posted by Desert Orchid+Oct 16 2006, 06:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Desert Orchid @ Oct 16 2006, 06:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-PDJ@Oct 16 2006, 05:13 PM
What goes through the mind of a child to kill another?
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Only a criminal psychologist could explain it. It seems entirely irrational but I can't help thinking that graphic reporting of murders and violent video games play a part. [/b][/quote]
You're right. It is irrational.
 
BRIAN POSTED
QUOTE (Merlin the Magician @ Oct 16 2006, 11:16 PM)
I think you'll find that I am right read the whole item below........



Merlin, are you pissed? This is from the Sky News link that you posted:

No I don’t need the demon drink to motivate my opinions or actions….

If Hamer behaves himself in jail he is then let out after 12yrs do you agree? And read this I posted in answer to Ardross…..The tariff cannot be increased over the level previously set.if he is deemed as being a prisoner that as given no problems …. FROM A ON LINE SITE REGARDING LIFE SENTENCES

So my interpretation to this is that the sentence is also a max of 12 yrs……………


HEADSTRONG POSTED
Disturbed children should not be executed, they should be locked away, and treated

If you read the report in full it categorically states that Hamer was normal as stated by his HEADMASTER……..

JON POSTED
Every time there's a headline murder, it seems you have to put the article on here and start bawling for the blood of the murderer.

I HAVE NEVER EVER STATED THAT ! So please don’t tell lies I never posted this article I added my opinion to it! Is that a criminal offence? Just for your information being that your trying to accuse me of not reading the full report just go and look at who posted the thread in the first place you’ll find its PDJ and NOT ME..

JON FURTHER POSTED
You just plonk the article and your judgment down and since you really hate to have anyone disagree with you, why keep doing it?

I have exactly the same rights as you or anyone else to post my opinions on any thread I wish to add too, and no my actions are well thought out, and backed up with relevant information on the topic I am discussing, and no if I was deemed or proved to be barking up the wrong tree I would concede but no one as convinced me that it is wrong to post my opinion on this thread or any other threads that I wish to post mu opinion on ….

Over the years how many times have I told you and a few others on here, if you don’t like what I contribute to these threads, well please don’t cast YOUR aspersions on them, if your not prepared to have some of the shit and lies that you post about my threads thrown back at you with a little extra thrown in for good measure too…but you can rest assure I don’t stoop so low as having to lie to draw attention to my posts …
I REST MY CASE….
 
If they aren't, as soon as they get out they'll be dropping chip bags in front of his house. Better executed surely.
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Oct 17 2006, 11:43 AM
So my interpretation to this is that the sentence is also a max of 12 yrs……………
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Then please allow me to explain it to you once more - the judge can impose a minimum tariff. That minimum can't be raised (except in certain appeal circumstances).

If the judge gives a minimum tariff of twelve years then the person convicted can not be released under any circumstances before twelve years is up. After twelve years the parole board will review the case and decide whether the person serving life is eligible for relase under licence. The panel has to be satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the prisoner be detained. If they are released they remain on licence for the rest of their life and if committing any criminal offence after their release could be recalled to continue to serve their life sentence.

However, and this seems to be the point that you are struggling to get, there is no maximum term imposed, which means that the convicted person could, and in some cases does, spend their entire life in prison. If the parole board considers that they are not fit for release at the first review then they remain in prison for another two years. The panel will review the case at two-yearly intervals until the prisoner is released on licence or until they die in prison.

Now, does that explain it?
 
It was my second draft. My first was:

Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Oct 17 2006, 11:43 AM
So my interpretation to this is that the sentence is also a max of 12 yrs……………
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Then your interpretation is FUCKING WRONG!
 
There is a change being brought about in Ireland this week to change the age of criminal responsibility from 7 to 12, except for serious crimes such as murder or rape, when you can be tried at the age of 10 or 11.

I have no problem with the move from 7 to 12 but I don't really get the provision to charge kids under 12 if the crime is more serious - either they are responsible for their actions or they are not.
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Oct 17 2006, 10:43 AM

HEADSTRONG POSTED
Disturbed children should not be executed, they should be locked away, and treated

If you read the report in full it categorically states that Hamer was normal as stated by his HEADMASTER……..
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The headmaster can say what he likes; imo - and that of most others - any child who kills another, let alone one who is handicapped and in a [homo-]sexual context, IS BY DEFINITION disturbed.

In retrospect I'm sure the headmaster meant to have said the child 'appeared to be normal'.

Normal, in the context stated, was clearly a term used within the legal argument deciding whether the child could be tried, as being responsible for his actions

As with other forumites, I can see no point in continuing this conversation
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Oct 17 2006, 11:43 AM
BRIAN POSTED
QUOTE (Merlin the Magician @ Oct 16 2006, 11:16 PM)
I think you'll find that I am right read the whole item below........



Merlin, are you pissed? This is from the Sky News link that you posted:

No I don’t need the demon drink to motivate my opinions or actions….

If Hamer behaves himself in jail he is then let out after 12yrs do you agree? And read this I posted in answer to Ardross…..The tariff cannot be increased over the level previously set.if he is deemed as being a prisoner that as given no problems …. FROM A ON LINE SITE REGARDING LIFE SENTENCES

So my interpretation to this is that the sentence is also a max of 12 yrs……………


HEADSTRONG POSTED
Disturbed children should not be executed, they should be locked away, and treated

If you read the report in full it categorically states that Hamer was normal as stated by his HEADMASTER……..

JON POSTED
Every time there's a headline murder, it seems you have to put the article on here and start bawling for the blood of the murderer.

I HAVE NEVER EVER STATED THAT ! So please don’t tell lies I never posted this article I added my opinion to it! Is that a criminal offence? Just for your information being that your trying to accuse me of not reading the full report just go and look at who posted the thread in the first place you’ll find its PDJ and NOT ME..

JON FURTHER POSTED
You just plonk the article and your judgment down and since you really hate to have anyone disagree with you, why keep doing it?

I have exactly the same rights as you or anyone else to post my opinions on any thread I wish to add too, and no my actions are well thought out, and backed up with relevant information on the topic I am discussing, and no if I was deemed or proved to be barking up the wrong tree I would concede but no one as convinced me that it is wrong to post my opinion on this thread or any other threads that I wish to post mu opinion on ….

Over the years how many times have I told you and a few others on here, if you don’t like what I contribute to these threads, well please don’t cast YOUR aspersions on them, if your not prepared to have some of the shit and lies that you post about my threads thrown back at you with a little extra thrown in for good measure too…but you can rest assure I don’t stoop so low as having to lie to draw attention to my posts …
I REST MY CASE….
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You are not a lawyer .

For the final time - please read carefully :angry:

The tariff may not be increased - but the tariff is simply the minimum period to be served . After a tariff expires a prisoner is eligible for consideration for parole. A life sentence prisoner however if considered a continuing risk will not be released thus the maximum is life !

Sorry Brian just noticed that you have alreasy explained this to Merlin
 
I wouldn't apologise, James - Merlin obviously needs it all being explained several times a n d v e r y s l o w l y ........

I agree with Pee that a life sentence should indeed mean just that, with no possibility of freedon but that this sentence should only ever be imposed in the most serious of cases. Minimum tariffs would then take on more meaning.

How a headmaster could make a judgement about any child's mental state escapes me - at best they could offer an opinion. How many heads actually spend time with their pupils these days? Most are up to their necks in bureaucracy, surely? Very few know their pupils by name, let alone in depth!
 
I strongly disagree that a life sentence should mean just that.

I am a fervent belief that a judicial system should be about both punishment and rehabilitation. To say that "life means life" means that we give up on the possiblity of rehabilitating criminals.

Perhaps we are being too leniant, but to give up on people who have committed a crime (no matter how heinous) goes against the grain.
 
My point was poorly worded, apologies. Life should mean life, however there should always be parole possibilities after a minimum tariff. Merlin, note the word minimum. This does not mean maximum.
 
I note the Pro has yet to respond about what exactly is funny about my previous post. Maybe he is Merlin in disguise??
 
While I am vehemently opposed to capital punishment, I also believe that in a certain few cases, 'life' should indeed mean just that - ie no possibility of release - ever. Why else use the phrase ?

It is in fact pretty inhumane to offer parole possibilities to each inmate if there is a ruling somewhere on file that this prisoner will never be released. What can be worse than false hope?

In all the other cases, the term 'Life' should be dropped from usage - set sentences should be imposed with parole reviews of course and we should put more effort into rehabilitation where possible.

I see your point, Bar but I feel it's a little bit naive - there are a few criminals who simply can never be rehabilitated because they don't choose to be. I am not talking about the criminally insane here, by the way, rather those who are judged to be sane but who have no remorse for what they did or any desire to change. It's not a case of us giving up on them but rather them giving up on themselves.
 
For all the debates regards the sentence I cant for the life ! (excuse the pun) of me see why as BAR states here that the accused/criminal/prisoner is given another chance remembering that the victim never had this opportunity..... this was not one blow or one stabbing, it was multiple blows and stabbings, why should he be given another chance???? throw the key away...

Jules your opening lines are as expected from you, in defence of your oppo..... you leave a lot to be desired when it comes to having any input into a given subject, talk about the subject matter, not the poster ......


RE
I would have thought that the headmaster being the head of departments is the person most qualified to give information to the courts and that the class teachers colate any or all information to the head, I don't see this as other than the normal procedure.. a school kid may get as many as 12 different teachers in a week depending on the subjects being studied.
The same procedure was inbeing when I went to school..........

HEADSTRONG I am ever so glad that you posted that statement as that's another bone of contention that rises its sorry head on here from time to time.......
 
Originally posted by PDJ@Oct 17 2006, 05:20 PM
I note the Pro has yet to respond about what exactly is funny about my previous post. Maybe he is Merlin in disguise??
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PEE I dont masquerade under other names I would tell you to your face anything that I need to say to you or anyone else on here as well....... :P
 
Merlin, the Principal at our place regularly does rounds of the school. On the very few occasions I ask him to speak to a child, he always looks at me and asks which one that is. Heads and Principals are so out of touch with teaching now it is ridiculous. Their job is to manage the school much like a business a lot of the time. The Deputy Head would have far more of an idea about individual children.
 
Originally posted by BrianH@Oct 17 2006, 06:29 PM
Merlin, do you now understand the concept of the minimum tariff?
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Well it may be sinking in? ;) I was very aware it was a minimum sentence but I also said it was a MAX sentence also(I will check the case again) if the prisoner did not step of the rails, and that it could not be added on to either unless being a naughty boy. And that HAMER was given the MAX sentence for the said crime the judge could not dole out a bigger sentence under the circumstances? of him being a minor?...............

But I am still a little in the dark! I was under the impression that a life sentence is deemed as being 10yrs if the prisoner is not a naughty boy/girl he or she then gets released after 10 yrs or less in some cicumstances? with good behavior.............

Some get sentenced to a few life sentences I.E. WESTS, HUNTLEY & SHIPHAM etc so are they then concurrent or consecutive? being as Phil stated Huntely wont come out of prison....(and I can assure you that he deservs all he gets bastard) unless in a box? in this case they are ex number of life sentences that will run consecutively for the full duration of his/her life?
 
Originally posted by Merlin the Magician@Oct 17 2006, 05:06 PM
For all the debates regards the sentence I cant for the life ! (excuse the pun) of me see why as BAR states here that the accused/criminal/prisoner is given another chance remembering that the victim never had this opportunity..... this was not one blow or one stabbing, it was multiple blows and stabbings, why should he be given another chance???? throw the key away...
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What will that solve?

We've all done things - some of them terrible - we regret. Does that mean we'll always be capable of doing another terrible thing? Possibly, but it doesn't mean we will do it.

Killing someone, in the mind of a killer, might not be that much different from kids stamping on slugs to hear the bang or firing air pellets at birds or, dare I say, letting a pack of hounds loose on a fox. I was more than happy to execute mice when they invaded my house. That would be a heinous act to some people. As a kid, I regularly raided birds' nests and 'blew' the eggs as part of a collection. The thought of it horrifies me now.

Most of us grow out of these things. Even killers can and do grow out of the mental disfunction that led them to kill. Statistically, there are probably convicted killers walking about your town presentating no damger whatsoever to the public. They'll have served their time - might even have got out early - but the disfunction that led them to kill is no longer there.

It's a very complex issue and I don't envy the lawyers (just their money ;) ) and judges who have to deal with the cases, especially defence lawyers who know their client is guilty but who feel obliged to do their duty to present a defence.

The bottom line, for me, is that we must have one of the most just legal systems in the world, regardless of what the gutter media would have us believe, and for that we should be thankful.
 
Those who consider that homosexuality is some sort of mental illness might like to know that all mainstream psychologists and psychiatrists disagree with them.
 
Originally posted by PDJ@Oct 17 2006, 06:31 PM
Merlin, the Principal at our place regularly does rounds of the school. On the very few occasions I ask him to speak to a child, he always looks at me and asks which one that is. Heads and Principals are so out of touch with teaching now it is ridiculous. Their job is to manage the school much like a business a lot of the time. The Deputy Head would have far more of an idea about individual children.
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But surely PEE if there was a disruptive kid in your school he would be brought to the headmasters notice/attention as I suppose he has the last word when expelling anyone? is that correct?

But HAMER was deemed as a normal child?? but there again I am not a child psychiatrist and does a child who is constantly in trouble do this sort of thing ? does he show traits in class that one could identify with him doing an act such as this I would not know.....

D-O Yes I can see where you’re coming from! I did similar things like most other kids did, which would not enter my mind to do now, but I am not believer in this when it comes to such a severe thing such as murder by beating and stabbing I really don't think a leopard changes his spots no matter how long he has in jail to try and get rehab;
 
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