2 Mile Chasers 21/22

Nonsense ..best 2 milers my backside....Sprinter Scare Alltior Douvan Un de Sceaux Simonsig Master MInded Moscow Flyer

anyone of those would have given those two more than enough to think about.

You got one short memeory.

I've made a small fortune of Shishkin in the last few days and if you care to look I backed him at 11/10 for the QMCC before the 2 met on Saturday.

I am not anti Shishkin but I have seen much better 2 mile chasers than him in my time.

I go all the way back to Dunkirk and Flyingbolt who would have picked up those two and carried them

Others like Crisp, Badworth Boy Remittance Man Pearleyman had such a high cruising speeds they would have travelled all over Energumene

Right now everyone from NJH, to Timeform and The media are doing a selling job on you and you're so blind you cant see it.

Yesterday was a terrific race but among the best 2 milers of all time..No fookin way

UNless you are talking about the last 3 months:lol:
 
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I don't need any history lessons.

I don't care whether you backed Shishkin or not - it's not relevant.

It's not me rating these horses, it's Timeform. Maybe they have short memories too?
 
I’m genuinely surprised Nico has said he felt like Shiskin was ‘cooked’ because despite Shiskin being ridden on the home turn before Energumene and still being ridden in the straight I think watching it back a few times Nico looks to have a lot more horse under him than maybe it looks. He’s being made to work to get past him and he’s been whipped three times before the final fence and whipped twice after it but in my opinion Shiskin beats him again at Cheltenham and possibly even more convincingly. Townend gave Energumene the perfect ride to try get Shiskin beaten and still couldn’t do it.
 
Slim said:
This thread has been great.

I think the rematch will be even better. If you are in the Energumene camp, what tactics give you the best chance in March?

1) Go full tilt and put Shishkin on the floor
2) Set a steady pace to blunt Shishkin's staying power
3) Is there another option?
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This post grabbed my attention as there are also 3 ways this thread can go

1) we continue to bask in yesterday's race
2) petty squabbles and dialogue over generational ratings of horses of yester year
3) we answer the damn question

Energumene can't really go any quicker and at the pace of yesterday, not sure it would be wise

Energumene also can't have any doubts that he was beaten fair and square yesterday so repeating the same would be folly. I think they will adopt slightly different pace strategy in March, he will hope something else takes them along or else save a bit more for himself.

Fascinating contest and the race of the festival for sure

Even if likely irrelevant would be nice to see Chacun **** up at Leopardstown
 
nickf88 said:
I’m genuinely surprised Nico has said he felt like Shiskin was ‘cooked’ because despite Shiskin being ridden on the home turn before Energumene and still being ridden in the straight I think watching it back a few times Nico looks to have a lot more horse under him than maybe it looks. He’s being made to work to get past him and he’s been whipped three times before the final fence and whipped twice after it but in my opinion Shiskin beats him again at Cheltenham and possibly even more convincingly. Townend gave Energumene the perfect ride to try get Shiskin beaten and still couldn’t do it.
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Yes, I'm no great fan of Timeform but I do accept that the 'industry' treats their word pretty much as gospel. So when they say (as quoted above):

“That said, Shishkin arguably deserves extra credit given he was always on the back foot after an unlucky peck around halfway so there could be even better to come from him. Indeed, Cheltenham’s Old Course is likely to play to his strengths more than Energumene – particularly the extended stretch between three out and two out – and we’d expect him to confirm the placings in the Queen Mother Champion Chase."


... a lot of people will accept their opinion. The extra emphasis above is mine because it addresses the view expressed on here that Energumene will find the Champion Chase test playing more to his strengths.

If I were Willie Mullins, I'd be seriously considering ducking Shishkin in the QM and going for the Shitebagair race. But I have a vested interested in his doing so therefore it's really just wishful thinking on my part.

Somewhere along the line, people with contrasting opinions will agree on something and I find myself in line with Timeform here.
 
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Desert Orchid said:
Yes, I'm no great fan of Timeform but I do accept that the 'industry' treats their word pretty much as gospel. So when they say (as quoted above):

“That said, Shishkin arguably deserves extra credit given he was always on the back foot after an unlucky peck around halfway so there could be even better to come from him. Indeed, Cheltenham’s Old Course is likely to play to his strengths more than Energumene – particularly the extended stretch between three out and two out – and we’d expect him to confirm the placings in the Queen Mother Champion Chase."


... a lot of people will accept their opinion. The extra emphasis above is mine because it addresses the view expressed on here that Energumene will find the Champion Chase test playing more to his strengths.

If I were Willie Mullins, I'd be seriously considering ducking Shishkin in the QM and going for the Shitebagair race. But I have a vested interested in his doing so therefore it's really just wishful thinking on my part.

Somewhere along the line, people with contrasting opinions will agree on something and I find myself in line with Timeform here.
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I dont see anyone sensible suggesting that he will reverse form, but I don't see anyone suggesting the Ryanair is the best race for him either. It is wishful thinking. Willie was asked about the rematch, and said theres only one race I can go for (paraphrasing).

I think Nico went for Shiskin going down to the fourth last, and got his revs up to the max to get on Energumene's tail. Usually that's enough to murder the opposition. I think he got a shock when Energumene went again and Nico had to ask him again. It took him 2 furlongs to get there but he did.

The peck of Shiskin is being overplayed. Not the type of error that harms a horse. Sets him back 3/4 length max maybe. I'm sure there were fences where Shiskin was 1/2l better than Energumene. Cut and thrust of jumps racing.
 
HawkWing said:
The peck of Shiskin is being overplayed. Not the type of error that harms a horse. Sets him back 3/4 length max maybe.
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In a race run at less than good/optimal fractions, I'd agree to an extent but they took no prisoners yesterday. In an Olympics hurdles final (110m or 400m) huge emphasis is placed on how the hurdles are negotiated.

I take the view that momentum lost is at least as important as ground and I always allow double any distance lost when assessing the effect. Obviously I can't do it for every mistake in every race but when double-checking certain races it's certainly something I do look at and take each incident on its own merits.

Imagine yourself cruising at 60mph on the motorway. Some idiot overtakes you and cuts in early, forcing you momentarily either to cancel cruise control, take your foot off the accelerator or even hit the brake. Before you know it, the car in front is several 'lengths' ahead of you. If you resume cruise or otherwise take your speed back up to 60mph you're never going to close that gap. You need to accelerate - ie use energy - to make up the ground. It's a double-whammy.

(Apologies if this is coming across as patronising but I'm trained to find ways of getting messages across in simple terms and retiring hasn't cured me of it!)

Another thing I noticed today after seeing Chapman's interview with NdB was how much further Shishkin actually did travel. I hadn't appreciated the position of First Flow during the race but he was keeping NdB wider. NdB himself, though, said that suited him so he probably wasn't too bothered about it and I don't imagine he'd have used it as an excuse if he hadn't got to Energumene.

But I don't have to ignore it :cool:
 
Energumene was brilliant yesterday. Did everything right, travelled, jumped and was given a very good ride in my opinion but Shiskin beat him anyway. As DO and others have correctly stated, Cheltenham will suit Shiskin better as well (proven course form and extended stretch between three out and two out as Timeform have written). That being said, I think Mullins should go for him again. They’ve nothing to lose and everything to gain. I hope they don’t duck Shiskin and give him a freebie. Yesterday’s race was something we as fans have savoured for a long time. Two champions taking each other on away from Cheltenham and I really hope they meet again in the QM.
 
granger said:
The logic of sending him to the Ryanair is lost on me in that he won't beat allaho either
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The one time Energumene ran over 2m4f he beat Port Stanley 37L - which is almost twice as far as Asterion Forlonge beat the same horse, PJ. This doesn’t prove very much (if anything) but when you have a horse of such proven-class as Energumene, I think it’s rash to dismiss his chance so blithely - even though Allaho is clearly a top-class individual himself.

My preference is for Energumene to go against Shishkin for a second time, for the spectacle it is certain to provide. Any mention of the Ryanair by me is bet-biased and therefore frivilous.

I figured we’d not be lucky enough to see both horses perform at the top of their game, and reasoned that if Energumene was beaten 7+ lengths, they’d perhaps consider a switch. The fact is he has run tremendously well, and almost certainly too well for a switch to be considered.
 
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granger said:
The logic of sending him to the Ryanair is lost on me in that he won't beat allaho either
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He'd likely be a second favourite to Allaho given the experience and form Allaho has.

The way the Ryanair division looks he'd be the only horse with any real chance against Allaho at present.

As Grassy says let him take his chance this season against Shishkin as he deserves to, but you never know and if he stays sound there's always another season isn't there.....maybe if Willie didn't train Allaho that would influence decisions in the future towards stepping him up in trip but the fact is that Willie does train Allaho and therefore Shishkin is the scalp he'll always be wanting to go for over a horse he trains himself.
 
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Grasshopper said:
First race out of novice company (as a novice), Altior beat the 167-rated 10-year-old Special Tiara 8L - "bounding clear after last".

First race out of novice company, Shishkin beat the 167-rated 7-year-old Greanateen 10L - "led and went clear, eased towards finish, impressive".

You need to start comparing these horses based on what they achieved at the same stage of their careers.

FWIW, I don't think Shishkin had a hard race at all. He is hard as nails based on every outing I've seen, and seems much more robust than you (and possibly the trainer) give him credit for.

I'm very-much looking forward to him taking on CPS at Cheltenham......and hoping Energumene goes to the Ryanair (for purely selfish reasons, as I have him in a multi at 12/1 with Jonbon at 33/1).
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Put that bet in the bin. Neither wins anything.
 
Grasshopper said:
The one time Energumene ran over 2m4f he beat Port Stanley 37L - which is almost twice as far as Asterion Forlonge beat the same horse, PJ. This doesn’t prove very much (if anything) but when you have a horse of such proven-class as Energumene, I think it’s rash to dismiss his chance so blithely - even though Allaho is clearly a top-class individual himself.

My preference is for Energumene to go against Shishkin for a second time, for the spectacle it is certain to provide. Any mention of the Ryanair by me is bet-biased and therefore frivilous.

I figured we’d not be lucky enough to see both horses perform at the top of their game, and reasoned that if Energumene was beaten 7+ lengths, they’d perhaps consider a switch. The fact is he has run tremendously well, and almost certainly too well for a switch to be considered.
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I did say it in such a manner for a bit of effect rather than a dogmatic stance based on a strong opinion but it is certainly some truth to it

It would be a sign of public weakness from wpm when he already has the Ryanair at his mercy to skip the one championship race he has yet to win.

People shouldn't sleep on how good a horse Allaho is. You need reminding..look at last years Ryanair
 
It is an interesting twist that Joe Donnelly owns Shiskin so WPM has to be gracious in defeat while sporting enough to want to beat Nicky with something.
I think WPM believes Chacun to be the better of his two so is hoping Shiskin comes to Punchestown if Chacun fails to perform at Cheltenham.
Re ratings , I have always believed that those top ratings are questionable but clearly you would need an aeroplane to pass those fine animals, while Shiskin and Altior in their pomp have an ability to find enough to win even when appearing in trouble.
Colin Tizzard's Racing Post a few years ago was indicative of WPM's mischief; after giving Colin a tour of Closutton Fox Norton pipped Un De Sceaux at Punchestown.
Willie when shaking Colin's hand said " Next time you visit me you will be mucking out the f$$$$n' stables !"
Just checked, nearly 150 posts on here since yesterday's race; great to be back !
It must be the relaxing of Covid restrictions; DRF anyone ???
 
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Does Nicky ever send horses to Punchestown? Thought he always sent them Sandown for that celebration chase or whatever its called
 
Double J said:
Does Nicky ever send horses to Punchestown? Thought he always sent them Sandown for that celebration chase or whatever its called
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He's only sent about a dozen horses in total in the last 9 years to Ireland and had 3 winners including Sprinter Sacre (2013) and
Punchestown Champion Hurdle - (1) Buveur d'Air (2019)
 
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Beef or Salmon said:
You can't be serious??
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Has the penny just dropped he's AFF his heid lol he probably doesn't realize wpm banker of the meeting already heads the market...more chance he will give Cheltenham a miss altogether unless the horse is 120% fit and ready to eat the track for breakfast...he'll have to do Dunkirk go off like a bat out of hell then quicken up and get so far in front Shishkin will be knackered just catching up with him...other than that waste of time going...but then WPM has pulled off bigger tricks in his time
 
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Grasshopper said:
I’m not even getting into this with you.

Find me anyone (other than you) that rates this lower than 175, and I’ll show you a dipstick.

I know exactly why you need to peg this at 170, because you can’t have your last ten posts about Altior and CPS being superior etc make you look that daft!
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Daft is it? Let me set the book straight here...almost every bet I have put up since January has won...I have put only 2 horses up on the running thread and both won. I have 2 very large bets AP at odds against on Honeysuckle and Shishkin do you really think I give a fukc what you or DO think Shishkins rating should be.....the horse is in his prime already and if my luck is in hell win the QMCC but after that I predict he will start to decline and he won't go on to achieve greatness. Horses like him always end up burning themselves out way earlier than normal.. He doesn't have the high cruising speed the greats of the past had and depends mainly on that great turbo of his kicking in....altior was an exception and his lasted longer than most but the majority of that type usually burn themselves out after a couple of seasons....happy punting Gawd knows you and DO need all the help you can get:)
 
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Good to catch up on all these posts since Saturday.
My take on it, like several others, everything went in Energumene's favour on Saturday and he still couldn't beat Shiskin (I did say to friends prior to the race it was almost his home fixture, ground, course, etc, Ascot front running bias).
I can only see the winning margin increasing for Shiskin come the big one as he is definitely better left handed.
Willie Mullins was so gracious in defeat, what an absolute gentleman.
Also, fine rides by both jockeys.
I'm not sure that CPS is an alternative either.
He's had 2 trips away from Ireland and disappointed both times, maybe he just doesn't travel, he's also 10 now and fragile too.
 
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