2 Mile Chasers 21/22

The day I start betting based on what Cattermole says in commentary, is the day I should give it up. :cool:

Shishkin was shaken-up after three-out, but Nico didn't go for his stick for the first time until after two-out.
 
Grasshopper said:
A few pages back you dismissed Captain Guiness as an “ordinary” animal, when I used him to place Shishkin/Energumene’s level in some sort of context.
I never used Captain Guiness to prop up anything I stated facts nothing more nothing less and you can make of those facts whatever you like :blink:
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20th January - "Captain Guiness is an ordianry animal and hardly a yardstick to be using to compare them or to be setting ratings by"

7th March - "Captain Guiness did Chacun Pour Soi's form no harm when he won the other day at Naas"

Come on, now.
 
reet hard said:
Then, why is he entered solely for the 2 mller, when others are also in the RyanAir, etc.?
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I suspect it's something to do with the trainers confidence in the horse at 2m, and his general MO.

He views the Ryanair Chase as very-much an inferior race to the QMCC. Sprinter Sacre never got a Ryanair entry ever, and if Altior ever got one, it was towards the end of his career. He certainly wasn't entered in his first season in open company.
 
I think everyone got caught up in the hype at Ascot and forgot to look and compare.

The time was far from exceptional. The gallop was steady but slow in comparison to the last horses who won on similar ground.

Un Des Sceaux who never came off the bridle and clocked 4m 14.70s around 6 lengths faster than Shishkin.

Dodging Bullets clocked a record breaking time of 4m 8.70s on soft ground..the mind boggles thats the equivilant of over 20 lenths:blink:
 
Such a simple and rudimentary comparison of times is utterly worthless - even I know that much.

I note you've chosen to completely ignore your quotes about Captain Guinness. Come on, now. ;)
 
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granger said:
When you take a 2 miler out of his natural inclination and try to slow him down you slit his throat

There can surely be no doubts that Shishkin will stay further?
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Neither of them are speed merchants compared to past 2 milers. I'd say he'll get 3 miles easily if he retains his ability and be better for it.
 
Grasshopper said:
I suspect it's something to do with the trainers confidence in the horse at 2m, and his general MO.

He views the Ryanair Chase as very-much an inferior race to the QMCC. Sprinter Sacre never got a Ryanair entry ever, and if Altior ever got one, it was towards the end of his career. He certainly wasn't entered in his first season in open company.
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None of which gives confidence Shishkin will "stay further"
 
Grasshopper said:
Such a simple and rudimentary comparison of times is utterly worthless - even I know that much.

I note you've chosen to completely ignore your quotes about Captain Guinness. Come on, now. ;)
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That is wy people spend hours on end looking at past races and sectionals because they're all daft.

I never said Captain Guiness makes and of them better than the other I just stated a simple fact.....get a grip man it's every post I make you attack with stupid remarks with nothing to back them up.
 
Tanlic said:
I think everyone got caught up in the hype at Ascot and forgot to look and compare.

The time was far from exceptional. The gallop was steady but slow in comparison to the last horses who won on similar ground.

Un Des Sceaux who never came off the bridle and clocked 4m 14.70s around 6 lengths faster than Shishkin.

Dodging Bullets clocked a record breaking time of 4m 8.70s on soft ground..the mind boggles thats the equivilant of over 20 lenths:blink:
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The time was slower because they'd gone too quick earlier.
 
reet hard said:
None of which gives confidence Shishkin will "stay further"
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Fair enough, reet, but maybe the fact he's won a hurdle race over 2m4f, a novice chase over 2m2f, and a 3m Point........or the fact he's by the same sire as Don Cossack, might give him that confidence?

I honestly don't know why you think he's a doubtful stayer at beyond 2m. Whatever you're seeing, I'm missing it.
 
Tanlic said:
That is wy people spend hours on end looking at past races and sectionals because they're all daft.

I never said Captain Guiness makes and of them better than the other I just stated a simple fact.....get a grip man it's every post I make you attack with stupid remarks with nothing to back them up.
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If you'd sent hours looking at sectionals, you would know that the time comparisons you put up proved precisely nothing.

And stop it already with the "attack" nonsense. Here's the facts.

I use Captain Guinness as an anchor for Shishkin/Energuemen's form, and you tell me is an "ordinary horse" and "hardly a yardstick". But when he wins after being beaten at the DRF by Chacun Pour Soi, all of a sudden he has "done the form no harm at all". It's absolute double-speak on your part, and there's no point getting on your high-horse when it's called out. Even you should be able to see the inconsistency in it.
 
Grasshopper said:
Fair enough, reet, but maybe the fact he's won a hurdle race over 2m4f, a novice chase over 2m2f, and a 3m Point........or the fact he's by the same sire as Don Cossack, might give him that confidence?

I honestly don't know why you think he's a doubtful stayer at beyond 2m. Whatever you're seeing, I'm missing it.
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Clearly You are, Grass, If you believe a nothing pace race around Huntingdon, various novices and a maiden point constitute proper stamina tests, I'll fiil in my entry for the London marathon; & I wasn't the one who limited his festival entries to a single race.
 
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Grasshopper said:
Such a simple and rudimentary comparison of times is utterly worthless - even I know that much.

I note you've chosen to completely ignore your quotes about Captain Guinness. Come on, now. ;)
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Utterly worthless my ass.

All we have had on here are people saying it was the race of the century, Energumene went too fast, maybe if he set a slower pace,
Bla Bla bla bla bla.

The truth is had they gone any slower they would have stopped. It was a very ordinary pace with a very ordinary out come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6088w8Sqnw&t=182s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjz-XokYZb4

Run the two races side by side from when they jump the first fence and you will not believe how slow Enegumene was actually going.

McCoy set a scorching pace on Somersby and they were miles ahead of Energumene by halfway and were almost at the winning post
when Shishkin was jumping the last.

Dodging Bullets was not my favourite horse but he won an Arkle, a Champion Chase, and a Tingle creek
and the Clarence in a record time.

If it had been by 1 or 2 seconds you could say so what but this was by a street length

I think this renewal is very ordinary in comparison to what has gone before

That is just my opinion which I am entitled to and I am at least trying to back it up.

:pI respect the opinions of other but not of someone telling me I am an idiot every second post
and nit picking like your senile Granny.:p

Go run the races and come back and tell me about Shishkin the Superstar.
 
Tanlic said:
Dodging Bullets was not my favourite horse but he won an Arkle, a Champion Chase, and a Tingle creek
and the Clarence in a record time.
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Dodging Bullets won an Arkle? I could have sworn he was 4th. I’d better see if I can find that ticket


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Tanlic said:
Utterly worthless my ass.

All we have had on here are people saying it was the race of the century, Energumene went too fast, maybe if he set a slower pace,
Bla Bla bla bla bla.

The truth is had they gone any slower they would have stopped. It was a very ordinary pace with a very ordinary out come.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6088w8Sqnw&t=182s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjz-XokYZb4

Run the two races side by side from when they jump the first fence and you will not believe how slow Enegumene was actually going.

McCoy set a scorching pace on Somersby and they were miles ahead of Energumene by halfway and were almost at the winning post
when Shishkin was jumping the last.

Dodging Bullets was not my favourite horse but he won an Arkle, a Champion Chase, and a Tingle creek
and the Clarence in a record time.

If it had been by 1 or 2 seconds you could say so what but this was by a street length

I think this renewal is very ordinary in comparison to what has gone before

That is just my opinion which I am entitled to and I am at least trying to back it up.

:pI respect the opinions of other but not of someone telling me I am an idiot every second post
and nit picking like your senile Granny.:p

Go run the races and come back and tell me about Shishkin the Superstar.
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Rowland’s take:

“ Plenty of analysis of the race has been done since, but it is not too late, I hope, for my pennyworth. The sectionals from Ascot are there for all to see in the Results Section on this site, but I reckon they have not been given as much consideration as they deserve.
They tell of a race run at a remarkably true pace for most of the way, given what we now know to have been the overall time, but that it was a fraction stronger than ideal at around the time my stream cut out. The result was that Energumene was wilting at the end more than that Shishkin was quickening.
The all-important race finishing speed %s – the speed at the finish as a % of the average speed for the race overall – were 98.7% for the final 4f where 101.0% is par, 96.6% for the final 2f where par is 99.7%, and 95.3% for the final 1f where par is 98.5%. It was a slow finish compared to the pace which preceded it, if by a little rather than a lot.”
 
No time for NH 'sectionals' & imo, it's folly to believe there's any such thing as a true pace in distance races. The naked eye can see there wasn't any even pace throughout the contest.
Contrived figures will tell less than plain, old fashioned race reading is my view.
 
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Depends on the field, but it looks a corker at the mo.
Not for the first time, I may have read Wllie Mullins wrong. He did say, after Punchestown last season, that Engi would go the Champion Chase route this, and the Clarence House was all part of the plan. A forward ride, around a stiff 2m, against gd1 opposition, to figure how ro ride him in the big one - a perfecly sensible ride in that case - and he looks (depending on the field) likely to be ridden more conservatively at Cheltenham. We'll see.:)
 
decs for QMCC at six day stage

Shishkin
Energumene
Chacun Pour Soi
Envoi Allen
Politolgue
Put The Kettle On
Nube Negra
Funambule Sivola
Editeur du Gite
Battle over Doyen
 
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barjon said:
Rowland’s take:

“ Plenty of analysis of the race has been done since, but it is not too late, I hope, for my pennyworth. The sectionals from Ascot are there for all to see in the Results Section on this site, but I reckon they have not been given as much consideration as they deserve.
They tell of a race run at a remarkably true pace for most of the way, given what we now know to have been the overall time, but that it was a fraction stronger than ideal at around the time my stream cut out. The result was that Energumene was wilting at the end more than that Shishkin was quickening.
The all-important race finishing speed %s – the speed at the finish as a % of the average speed for the race overall – were 98.7% for the final 4f where 101.0% is par, 96.6% for the final 2f where par is 99.7%, and 95.3% for the final 1f where par is 98.5%. It was a slow finish compared to the pace which preceded it, if by a little rather than a lot.”
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I don't disagree with that BUt and theirs always a but! It was a race run at a remarkably true pace as I more or less said earlier but to win a good Arkle you need that plus an injection of pace that makes you that bit different. Douvan and Sprinter had it. there's no way on earth does Edwarstone even come close....If he manages to win the Arkle good on him but retain his 2 mile crown with the young brigage coming up through the ranks.Not a cat in hells chance
 
Tanlic said:
I don't disagree with that BUt and theirs always a but! It was a race run at a remarkably true pace as I more or less said earlier but to win a good Arkle you need that plus an injection of pace that makes you that bit different. Douvan and Sprinter had it. there's no way on earth does Edwarstone even come close....If he manages to win the Arkle good on him but retain his 2 mile crown with the young brigage coming up through the ranks.Not a cat in hells chance
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I posted up Rowland’s take since it was markedly different fro your take - “ The truth is had they gone any slower they would have stopped. It was a very ordinary pace with a very ordinary out come”

Can’t quite understand how The Arkle and Edwardstone come into play?:confused:
 
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