2000 Guineas

I really don't like Delegator - I don't even know why - just doesn't give me the feel of a 2000 winner

You know I'm glad you said that EC1. Although my head tells me his hit some sparkling form at the right time and he could well run into a place, I just don't get the feel of a Guineas winner from him either... we're probably both wrong.

Rip Van Winkle, I've been watching his previous races. He seems to quicken once quite classily, but he doesn't look a compelling solution to me either. particular as his prep was held up with an over-reach and then a pussed up hoof.

I know what Warbler means about Finjaan, I keep coming back to him too and the trainer is very bullish. I just feel he may not get the mile well enough (at least yet).

After much soul searching I've backed Mastercraftsman again at 5s and had some each-way at 12s on Sea The Stars.

I think that will do me. This one's quite hard.
 
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I'll see what I can find out about definite running plans and gallop reports about Recharge etc.

I've played at 2.86 for Mastercraftsman to be placed.
 
Recharge was fit and fancied to beat some unfit Ballydoyle second/third strings (and probably staying type horses), an Intense Focus who cruised all over him and then appeared not to get home and has since been re-routed to France.

Hail Caesar has been beaten since and Liebermann could not win a weak race at Limerick. In fact looking at his form with Hail Caesar he pretty much ran to the poundage to his run in the Beresford last year.

Recharge is a Group 2/3 horse at best and will be found out in the Irish Guineas.
 
You know I'm glad you said that EC1. Although my head tells me his hit some sparkling form at the right time and he could well run into a place, I just don't get the feel of a Guineas winner from him either... we're probably both wrong.

Rip Van Winkle, I've been watching his previous races. He seems to quicken once quite classily, but he doesn't look a compelling solution to me either. particular as his prep was held up with an over-reach and then a pussed up hoof.

I know what Warbler means about Finjaan, I keep coming back to him too and the trainer is very bullish. I just feel he may not get the mile well enough (at least yet).

After much soul searching I've backed Mastercraftsman again at 5s and had some each-way at 12s on Sea The Stars.

I think that will do me. This one's quite hard.

I don't think RVW was the full article at 2..I also think the dewhurst was a "feeler" to see how he measured up against the best of his age..but without ever risking a hard race on him...ie leave his career behind him in that race...the horse smacks of planning for his 3yo career

i think too many people are reading the bare form of the Dewhurst like its the be all and end all of 2yo races...not every trainer uses that race in the same way...particularly AOB...he is quite happy to "use" races to get answers for the future...he's a very smart cookie.

I actually get the feeling RVW will kill this field tomorrow.
 
I've got my 16s e/w on Sea The Stars from the other week. Not sure if I'll go in again but can see the logic of trying to pick one of the longshots.

Meanwhile, latest going:

Course Newmarket
Next Race Saturday 2nd May
Report Date Friday 1st May; 4:45 pm
Going Good to Firm (watered)
GoingStick 8.7 at 4pm
Additional Information 9mm of irrigation applied to the whole course. Completed by lunchtime
 
I don't think RVW was the full article at 2..I also think the dewhurst was a "feeler" to see how he measured up against the best of his age..but without ever risking a hard race on him...ie leave his career behind him in that race...the horse smacks of planning for his 3yo career

i think too many people are reading the bare form of the Dewhurst like its the be all and end all of 2yo races...not every trainer uses that race in the same way...particularly AOB...he is quite happy to "use" races to get answers for the future...he's a very smart cookie.

I actually get the feeling RVW will kill this field tomorrow.

I've been trying to look past RVW bare form to what the real deal might be. It occured to me that he is the type who shows up well in his work as he quickens smoothly. But it seems to me that after quickening once he doesn't carry through his effort.

Mastercraftsman appears as a more ponderous galloper and probably appears less impressive in his work, but I think this may be deceptive. When he gets into a rhythm he has a huge stride and the sort of momentum it will be difficult to go with.

I'm finding it hard to call though.

The thing I feel most certain about at this point in time is that Sea The Stars will be placed. I think Mastercraftsman is more likely to win but I'm less certain he'll be placed... if that makes any sense at all. It's been a long week and I'm getting tired. Still got my TTF to finish as well.
 
I've got my 16s e/w on Sea The Stars from the other week. Not sure if I'll go in again but can see the logic of trying to pick one of the longshots.

Sounds sensible... you got the right sort of price on a colt you're likely to draw on (in some shape of form) for you to get aggressive with any remaining value (wherever that is now).
 
Without wishing to put a damper on things they have been making noises that they could still pull RVW out if not 100% happy with him, in which case Murtagh would presumably revert to Mastercraftsman.
 
Great thread, and perhaps one for the archive?

I've long been a fan of Ashram, and think Gamla Stan wrote a very good post on his Dewhurst run which i'd agree with.

I've also backed Sea the stars, and I can't help feeling there's a lot to come from Gam Amhras, though will perhaps be even better at 1m2 later on.

Nearly always the most exciting race of the season in terms of build up, anticipation, etc.

*** as i write this, Betfair market is suspended - any ideas?

Edited - back now. Bizarre.
 
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3.10 – Newmarket – 2000 Guineas

Not one of the stand out Guineas in recent season’s but one of the key factors in the training industry in the past twenty years has been the introduction on all weather gallops. The Polytrack home gallops have enabled trainers to do more pace work with horses in the winter months and return a horse to the track with a higher level of fitness. Perhaps this is one of the main reason’s why the 2000 Guineas has been won by a horse making its seasonal reappearance 12 times in the past 20 running’s, suggesting horses coming off a break have an advantage.

Back in 1996 and 1999 Godolphin weren’t as reliant on their base in Dubai to prep the horses in the winter months, in fact the majority of the UK based horses either came back early at the start of April or they stayed in the UK throughout the winter. This year has been the first time in around 10 years that the boys in boy have brought back their strings early. April the 5th was when Ashram returned to Newmarket, which has given him time to settle back into his routine and hit top form.

In his first couple of gallops he wasn’t overly impressive but in a recent workout under Ted Durcan the former John Hill’s group 3 winner impressed when opening up from his lead and going away from a high class companion. Ashram certainly looks to have plenty in hand at home at present and he looks in great nick at present. A clear indication of his well being having not looked this well when coming off the plane.

Its clearly proof to Godolphin that coming back a couple of weeks earlier is an added advantage to the boys in blue and Ashram will be looking to land a bit of a Guineas shock at 18/1 this afternoon. An online exchange is currently offering 25/1 win only.

Of the 16 that line up, only 8 of the 16 back the facts that you really do need to be 1st time out this season, but of the remaining 8 to have run, I find it interesting that that Delegator recorded a time of 1m 36.56 secs when winning the Craven. A time quick enough to have won 7 of the last 10 colts classic, with only Cockney Rebel, Footstepsinthesand and Rock Of Gibraltar recording a faster time over the Rowley Mile. Today’s faster ground may have been giving Brian Meehan a few sleepless nights but his figure of 72 was deemed a 2lb (2L) improvement from his Dewhurst effort last season. He would be the main one to buck the first time out trends.

If you want value in the race John Ryan’s Ocean’s Minstrel is another not to be discounted. Proven over longer trips than this, he returned with a polished performance in the Easter Stakes at Kempton and making all he produced a solid clock figure of 76. This was recorded as 4L better than Delegator’s Craven success yet he trades as the rank outsider in the Guineas today. This is something that puzzles me and a direct line through Icesolator puts him 1/2L behind Cityscape who is a 20th of the price of Ocean’s Minstrel. John Ryan’s performer is yet to totally impress on turf which has to be noted but on form alone he is certainly the wrong price.

Of the horses making their reappearance today I have their best figures as follows;

Ashram – 75

Evasive – 73

Finjaan – 72

Gan Amhras – 72

Lord Shanakill – 77

Mastercraftsman – 75

Rip Van Winkle – 69

Sea The Stars – 72

The above shows the highest rated performances of those last season and interesting we only have 8L from best to worse. Instantly the main bulk of the Irish challengers looks outclassed with only Mastercraftsman holding his own on the figures showing up as the clear joint 2nd best in the line up.

Moving the top 4 through to the next stage, I’m left with Ashram, Evasive, Lord Shanakill and Mastercraftsman.

For me Evasive is one I’m keen to eliminate, his participation has never really been in doubt but the best performance from him has come with cut in the ground and more conclusively I fear that he may not be 100% ready for this having missed bits of work.

Mastercraftsman has solid form from last season and for me his effort when beating Art Connoisseur at the Curragh last season was one of the best efforts on the clock and he looks very solid. Not totally looking in love with the ground when beating Shaweel I’m willing to forgive a poor show in France at the end of the season, for the fact again I feel the ground didn’t show him to his best light. It can be no surprise his best effort came on fast ground and back on a sound surface today he comes into the reckoning.

I look towards Lord Shanakill here and a model of consistency he produced a cracking figure of 77 when winning the Mill Reef at Newbury. Having run a before down on the clock in the Dewhurst I think its proved the Dewhurst form isn’t good enough to win the Guineas this year but he scored higher figures than his Dewhurst effort on three occasions last season, once at Ascot, York and of course Newbury where he smashed the clock. However one little doubt has to be is whether he will get the mile having shown the best form over 6f and its noticeable his two ducks of 70 came in the Dewhurst and also at Goodwood when he ran over 7f. Its not write off form, but it does mean I will be making him a saver and not the selection.

For me the buck stops with ASHRAM. The former John Hills trained colt put up a devastating effort over 7f here last season when winning the Tattersalls Stakes and the figure of 75 certainly suggested he would have been hard to beat in the Dewhurst. The pace in the Dewhurst is what beat him and the fact he had to race deeper on the track than anything else certainly leads me to think he is value to have finished closer with a better position. With the Godolphin trends pointing to him, his work in great form and currently the jt 2nd in on figures I have to see him as a positive bet today. His course record of 2 from 3 is there for all to be seen and he gets the vote ahead of Mastercraftsman who rates the main danger. We will save on Lord Shanakill and Delegator.

Given Rip Van Winkle showed his best in the Dewhurst I just can see where the improvement will come from and I’m keen to take on the favourite.

Today’s Advised Bets

LAY To Win 10pts Rip Van Winkle (3.10 Newmarket) @ 4.9

BET 2pts Win & Place Ashram (3.10 Newmarket) @ 26.5 & 6.4
BET 2pts Win Mastercraftsman (3.10 Newmarket) @ 7.6
BET 1.5pts Win Delegator (3.10 Newmarket) @ 5.0
BET 1pt Win & Place Lord Shanakill (3.10 Newmarket) @ 22 & 5.6
 
Were it not for his set back, Rip Van Winkle would be even shorter in the betting as confidence was high last week as he had really come right over the last couple of weeks. I do not like the fact he still was not sound on Wednesday/Thursday as any kind of setback in the final few days is always a massive negative for me. I have him backed at 20/1 from last season but wouldn't entertain his price now though I think he is a special colt.

I think the booking of Smullen confirms alot of what we have been hearing and indeed seeing about Mastercraftsman...he is the type of horse who'll need a strong rider as he won't neccessarily quicken but he will keep on remorsely. Ground and trip should not be an issue but my slight worry would be his action when the pace really quickens up coming into the dip. He is a long striding colt who might just get lost for a critical few moments.

I think Rip Van Winkle will prove to be the best horse in the race in the long term, but today Sea The Stars and Gan Amhras interest me.
 
I think Rip Van Winkle will prove to be the best horse in the race in the long term, but today Sea The Stars and Gan Amhras interest me.

You might be right about Rip. He certainly seems to be the one Ballydoyle have been grooming above all others for this. But with all things considered you have to have a bit more faith than I've got in him for this.

Lots of momentum behind Gan Amhras, but being by Galileo out of a Darshann mare he's more likely a St Leger type, let along the Derby, so I can't really fancy him for this. If he wins here we'd have a Triple Crown winner on our hands!

Sea The Stars looks good from all angles. He seems to have a slight edge on virtually everything in the race in virtually all respects. Not a clear advantage though.

I've got to stick with Mastercraftsman overall in the hope that his homework looks nothing out of the ordinary but that he'll gallop the heart out of them on the racecourse.
 
Good stuff, Flame, but I feel obliged to come back at you on this one:

I find it interesting that that Delegator recorded a time of 1m 36.56 secs when winning the Craven. A time quick enough to have won 7 of the last 10 colts classic, with only Cockney Rebel, Footstepsinthesand and Rock Of Gibraltar recording a faster time over the Rowley Mile.

I reckon taking the time in isolation is very dangerous. The ground was very fast that week and on that day alone I have Delegator's time rating at a rather pedestrian 87 compared with Tazeez (106) and Tax Free (108) on the same day. The runner-up behind delegator was running off an OR of just 76 and the third, Pure Poetry, was off just 99 despite having won the Kempton trial. I'd have been disappointed if Delgator wasn't able to dispose summarily of that lot but I'd have wanted him to do it much quicker too.
 
Lots of momentum behind Gan Amhras, but being by Galileo out of a Darshann mare he's more likely a St Leger type, let along the Derby, so I can't really fancy him for this. If he wins here we'd have a Triple Crown winner on our hands!

This has been on my mind since Thursday's shcok news that he runs here in preference to Intense Focus. I've gone in quite heavily ante-post for Epsom in the belief he'll run well here, if not win, and shorten up considerably, allowing me to lay off if I feel the need.
 
This has been on my mind since Thursday's shcok news that he runs here in preference to Intense Focus. I've gone in quite heavily ante-post for Epsom in the belief he'll run well here, if not win, and shorten up considerably, allowing me to lay off if I feel the need.

Good tactic. I might follow you in. I'm quite sweet on Fame And Glory at the moment, but a bit of insurance might be an idea.
 
What a race by the way. Feel like I'm being pulled in a dozen different directions at once. Probably one to leave alone... if only I were that sensible!
 
Delegator runs, On Our Way pulled out due to the ground.

A sore foot on this ground isn't going to help RVW's chances of following through with his effort.

Can't get the Pheonix out of my mind. MCM excels on this going. STS should also relish it like this.
 
I'm struggling, so I'm going to back the stable fancy for Bolger, Oxx and O'Brien. Mug-punting? Probably, but at 7/4 I feel I've got three decent ones running for me.
 
Good stuff, Flame, but I feel obliged to come back at you on this one:



I reckon taking the time in isolation is very dangerous. The ground was very fast that week and on that day alone I have Delegator's time rating at a rather pedestrian 87 compared with Tazeez (106) and Tax Free (108) on the same day. The runner-up behind delegator was running off an OR of just 76 and the third, Pure Poetry, was off just 99 despite having won the Kempton trial. I'd have been disappointed if Delgator wasn't able to dispose summarily of that lot but I'd have wanted him to do it much quicker too.

I was wondering who'd be first out of the blocks:) About 10 horses beat standard time that day, if Delegator's was a true Gp1 performance he should have done too under the conditions he had. The raw time is pretty close to meaningless without a concession to prevailing conditions to equalise things. His time falls somewhere between 'listed' and the 0-110 par for an April 3yo.

Lord Shanakill's time at Newbury is also something of a rogue. At face value it looks good until you start picking at some of the detail on the card and then it starts to crumble a bit. There was a deadly combination of fast and slow races that day, and it's not easy to try and set variance. I think it took me about 30 minutes, but I eventually hit on a figure I was happy with, (although I generated about 5 different ones dependent on what I thought was happening) but it was subsequently born out in the Dewhurst where he improved 1.25L's on his Mill Reef win, which would be in line with expectation for a tail end 2yo. There was a really quite violent spread of times on that card and there seemed to be a less than obvious bias towards the straight course too, which hed have benefited from. It looks like there was a blusetry wind gettign into things too (but this could also be attributable to a muddling set of races as the same types of figures would come back with either explanation). The Morny was another one that was devilish to rate too. I think he was progressing very nicely in the end though and his curve is one of the more predictable but I reckon he's projected onto about 97 which is normally somewhere between 3rd and 6th
 
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