2008 Arc

This is presumably the most reliable guide to the forecast:

http://france.meteofrance.com/france/accueil/

Soldier Of Fortune is spot on for this...just needs the rain to come.

The formlines that Warbler puts up for Zarkava is all well and good...but I do not believe for one second that the Goldilocks we saw in the French Guineas and Diane was the saem Goldilocks we saw in the Moulin the other week. Horses improve...particularly fillys.
 
No, I think he's not as ground dependent as is being made out.

Agree.

I hold enough more than respectable Gp1 figures for him to draw the same conclusion. It's just that his most impressive display to date, came in heavy and this is leading people to over-state things in this game that is so often 'black' and 'white' with few shades of grey
 
Neither SoF nor DoM are as ground dependent as is being made out here.

With regards to Soldier of Fortune, the question for me is more whether he is good enough to win on good ground rather than him handling it.

Have a feeling that Papal Bull could put in a good one tommorrow.
 
Agree.

I hold enough more than respectable Gp1 figures for him to draw the same conclusion. It's just that his most impressive display to date, came in heavy and this is leading people to over-state things in this game that is so often 'black' and 'white' with few shades of grey

SOF will need a career best to win this imo, the more rain the more chance there is of that happening as on a quicker surface I do not think his best is as good as a few others.

Just read your post now trackside, nicely put about SOF.
 
but I do not believe for one second that the Goldilocks we saw in the French Guineas and Diane was the saem Goldilocks we saw in the Moulin the other week. Horses improve...particularly fillys.

Surely that has to do with the porridge Freddy Head was feeding her before the Pouliches... far too hot it was... :D
 
EC1, I have backed SOF since the summer. Will wait and see what the ground actually is like tomorrow before taking further action.
 
Gagnoa and Dar Re Mi showed the Zarkava level today, I think she is a place lay , the bubble will burst tomorrow.

SOF and Youmi the ones for me in the big race.
 
If in doubt back the Niel form. And in truth it's a simple rule that's worked well over the last 12 or so years, but right now I just don't think the form is particularly strong, and it can be too easily unpicked. The other thing I can't escape from is that the best 3yo French colt is injured and this just adds to me thinking there's something fraudulent about Vision D'Etat. I've tried to have a go race reading instead, and this has led me to think that DoM is the Ballydoyle horse, but the clue to my mind is in the pace maker that they've entered and the one that they scratched at the 5 day stage, rather than any Murtagh preference, as he was always likely to row in with DoM.

Red Rock Canyon has done the duties for DoM in the Juddmonte, King George, Prince of Wales and Tattersalls Gold Cup this season. Song of Hiawatha normally does the job for SoF as that horse needs a stronger pace. Indeed, he did it in the Niel last year (strictly speaking he did it in the Arc too, although it would be debatable whom he was doing it for, but given that Dylan would be at the edge of his range over 12F's in a fast race, I think you might guess that they regarded SoF as the better chance last year if they were using Hiawatha). Song of Hiawatha also turned up to break trail for SoF in both Coronation Cup and Grand Prix du St Cloud this year too. That Red Rock Canyon lines up and Hiawatha doesn't, is in my mind a stronger indicator than Murtagh taking the ride on DoM.

This decision I believe is important as it's likely to try and affect the early pace and ultimately how the race might pan out. The word 'pacemaker' when applied to Red Rock Canyon is something of an anathema I'm increasingly thinking. 'Pace stifler' might be more appropriate?. Look at DoM' s TS and RPR's for the 4 races RRC's done the duties for him for this year.

98 - 128 = Juddmonte (30Ibs)
117 - 128 = King George (11Ibs)
103 - 130 = Prince of Wales (27Ibs)
40 - 126 = Tatts Gold Cup (86Ibs)

Thats a big discrepancy between the level of performance achieved in form, and the level of performance achived on the clock. It suggests to me that RRC is deployed to set a steady pace for DoM rather than a testing gallop. Compare it to how SoF seemingly needs to have a race set up for him.

114 - 126 = GP St Cloud (12Ibs)
106 - 124 = Coronation Cup (18Ibs)
126 - 126 = Prix Niel (0Ibs)
127 - 127 = Irish Derby (0Ibs)

Spanish Harem did the honours in the Irish Derby, but the principal is the same. The Arc was also run at a fast pace (about 1 pound wrong) with Hiawatha doing the honours for either Dylan or SoF.

The King George holds an insight, and a terrible de ja vu feeling, if things pan out the same way. What basically happened is that RRC went to the front and then slowed it up for 3 furlongs, effectively controlling the pace, rather than forcing it. There is suspicion in my mind still, that DoM not unlike Dylan, is right on the edge of his limits at 12F's and the faster they run, the more likely that is to be tested. At Ascot horses that had proven stamina such as Lucarno and Youmzain just sat off this pace and did nothing to dispute it. It was perhaps not surprising therefore that having conserved energy the more accomplished 10F performer, was able to put in a devastating finish along with Papal Bull from near the front and bring his sprinting to the fore, by effectively closing the race distance down, rather than pushing it out.

Here in lies the quandary. There's at least four horses who come to my mind who would benefit from a more searching pace having got form at further (Getaway, Meisho Samson, Youmzain) and to a lesser extent SoF given that he's got wins in fast times on heavy ground. If, as seems likely, Ballydoyle try and tee things up for DoM, what are these horses likely to do? Especially as the same tactics are likely to play into Zarkava's hands too, for similar reasons.

If a slowing of the pace is retaliated to by someone else picking it up, who will be the beneficiaries? or I suppose more pertinently, what is the likelihood of someone forcing it. Is Youmzain likely to ridden aka Ascot again?
 
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good piece by Warbler

but there will be pace, the field is so big that it will be impossible will not fight for the position, and if the pace is slow , horses in rear will have problems to come from behind .
 
Horses improve, esp fillies - yes, over the summer!
And if it were summer weather I'd feel more confident of the filly's chances
Fillies in particular can take a long time to get going in a cold spring, and shut up shop in a cold autumn.

The length of the thread only shows it's really a quite open and certainly fascinating race


PS Have now read Warbler's last piece of analysis, and I can only say I'll be surprised if we aren't referring to that tomorrow. I'll add that my own gut instinct when I heard 3/4 weeks ago that DOM was an almost certain runner in the Arc, was to back him blind; not that I worked it out in the detail that Warbler has

When Ballydoyle have a prospective stallion's future in the balance, they will leave nothing to chance; and my judgment is that they will have left little to chance -and only that being what they have no control over - in setting up the race for him. When all is said and done he IS a better stallion prospect in THEIR terms than SOF, and they will have planned accordingly.
 
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good piece by Warbler

but there will be pace, the field is so big that it will be impossible will not fight for the position, and if the pace is slow , horses in rear will have problems to come from behind .

Agreed on all counts. I think though that it`s less straightforward for Ballydoyle to set things up for their stallions in a race like the Arc than it would be in lesser contests in England and Ireland.
 
Zarkava reported as 50/50 this morning because of the rain. From what I can see its only started in the last hour 06.00 - 07.00 although they had a little bit after midnight. There looks to be another belt about 4 hours away that will hit late morning though. Should we take DoM and Zarkava on with SoF all of sudden

http://www.meteox.co.uk/h.aspx?r=&soort=loop24uur&URL
 
Zarkava reported as 50/50 this morning because of the rain. From what I can see its only started in the last hour 06.00 - 07.00 although they had a little bit after midnight. There looks to be another belt about 4 hours away that will hit late morning though. Should we take DoM and Zarkava on with SoF all of sudden

http://www.meteox.co.uk/h.aspx?r=&soort=loop24uur&URL

I did ..12 hours ago

The pace thing you mentioned..I talked about it on here weeks ago...they have set deliberately slow paces on a number of occasions..the KG is the one of particular interest..they set the pace for a doubtful stayer DOM to win the KG..which is admitting they don't think he stays a truly run 12f...so his chances in an Arc on soft ground must be very slim.

it's very quick to go soft there isn't it?...someone mentioned it would only need an hours rain to turn it to soft..which is basically why they rarely get real fast ground.
 
If they are talking about Zarkava being a non-runner or at least a possible one - I assume they are keeping her in training next year? Somewhat bizarre aiming her at this race all season and then pulling her out.
 
On the website the going is now officially Good To Soft. I think Zarkava's trainer has somewhat exaggerated it a bit.
 
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When Ballydoyle have a prospective stallion's future in the balance, they will leave nothing to chance; and my judgment is that they will have left little to chance -and only that being what they have no control over - in setting up the race for him. When all is said and done he IS a better stallion prospect in THEIR terms than SOF, and they will have planned accordingly.

Interesting point alright. Given that we know Coolmore are shopping Soldier of Fortune (even if he won, he wouldn't be the stallion prospect Duke of Marmalade is) it's fairly obvious which of the two they would prefer to see win (though SOF's value would of course increase exponentially were he to win).

That said, that doesn't necessarily mean he is their best chance, particularly in the conditions.
 
I've backed what I consider to be the forgotten horse.

Badly hampered and snatched up when making his run last year when 3rd fav, he's had a quiet campaign with four well-spaced runs culminating in a win in the Foy. That form doesn't amount to Arc-winning chances but he's in good hands in terms of his trainer and jockey, goes on ground with give, could well have gone very close last year with a clear run, has clearly been trained with today in mind and is blinkered for the first time. I just think 50/1 is an insult to a horse with the class of Zambezi Sun.
 
I'm growing increasingly sweet on another outsider/ forgotten horse too.

Kamsin is the one I've been coming round to, since watching the rainfall radar on the Paris basin. His Soft ground form is amongst the best on display (and Germans unlike the French) can use a Penetrometer accurately.

Kamsin is 3 wins from 3 in soft or heavier ground, and I think the German horse has been under-estimated. He won the Grosser Preis Von Baden beating Adlerflug by a decent 2.5L's. The latter had only been defied by Quijano the year previous, with a presumebly tip top Youmzain back in fourth. He of course would go on to all but win the Arc or month later. This year Lucarno was 19.25L's behind having led into the straight. This compares roughly to DoM's defeat of the same named by 15.5L's in the King George.

Before that he won a Gp1 in Cologne beating Papal Bull as recently as August by the same 0.5L that DoM did. In otherwords his recent form might be on a level closer to DoM's than is readily realised, and he's likely to have conditions in his favour in few hours time.

Prior to this Gp1 success he won the German Derby at Hamburg by 3L's in July on soft ground again. The best yardstick in that field might be King of Rome who he beat 7.25L's. Vision D'Etat could only beat the same horse 4.75L's in the Niel. As a seemingly improving horse, with conditions to suit, I'm not sure I'd have him out 4 times the price of the Niel winner, especially as Vision D'Etat was all out for his smaller winning margin
 
I've backed what I consider to be the forgotten horse.

Badly hampered and snatched up when making his run last year when 3rd fav, he's had a quiet campaign with four well-spaced runs culminating in a win in the Foy. That form doesn't amount to Arc-winning chances but he's in good hands in terms of his trainer and jockey, goes on ground with give, could well have gone very close last year with a clear run, has clearly been trained with today in mind and is blinkered for the first time. I just think 50/1 is an insult to a horse with the class of Zambezi Sun.

Interesting selection DO, as I was reading your piece I was dismissing each of your points until I got to the "blinkered first time" piece - I had not realised that. He is a very talented colt and first time blinkers could encourage him to show a bit of it. It will need to because he thought about not going past the eventual second in his trial in Longchamp last time.

I would say though he was well beaten at the time of interference in last years renewal.
 
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