2018 Gold Cuppin'

I'm a little surprised that Killultagh Vic hasn't had more of a mention on this thread with all the recent Gold cup chat. I'm not saying he's the most obvious or likely winner, but he certainly commands respect imo. Falling lto obviously a negative,but the potential and possibility is definitely there and surely Ruby rides him over Djackadam & Total Recall....

Anyone heard anything as to his well being since falling at Leopardstown at the DRF?
 
Double Handful said:
I'm a little surprised that Killultagh Vic hasn't had more of a mention on this thread with all the recent Gold cup chat. I'm not saying he's the most obvious or likely winner, but he certainly commands respect imo. Falling lto obviously a negative,but the potential and possibility is definitely there and surely Ruby rides him over Djackadam & Total Recall....

Anyone heard anything as to his well being since falling at Leopardstown at the DRF?
Click to expand...
.

You have apoint DJ we really don't know how good he is other than VERY. I will be amazed if it even crosses Ruby mind to ride Djakadam who should be heading to france for that funny race they have
 
what I am 1005 sure of is Might Bite is going to get his ass felt. To me he's no more a Gold Cup horse than flying in the air and was ahuge disappointment at Kempton.

He'll go down faster than Titanic on Gold Cup day................my advice lay the fooker....Ground or no ground Tizzards will run the lost of them into the ground as sure as god made little green men form mars..bars
Click to expand...



Tanlic, he’ll have em all beat so early he’ll have time to go for a pint in the Guinness Village again like last year & still win.

In all seriousness tho, you raise the point of him going down easily or like the “Titanic” it’s a point I’m surprised has not been thrashed about more given he’s a Scorpion but one I’d have no reservations about. They said the same about Sizing John last year & Kauto Star in his first win too. Stamina wont beat Might Bite. Might Bite is the only horse who could possibly beat Might Bite.

His Dam Knotted Midge has produced 2 progeny, Might Bite & Beat That. Beat That was a 2 time G1 winner over 3m as a hurdler before injury thwarted his career. Two of those wins came against high class stayers laden with stamina in Cole Harden & Don Poli. Knotted Midges Dam was called Bula beag who gave us Drombeag who won numerous times over 3m+. Her sire was the great Presenting who gave us Denman and War of Attrition so trust me, stamina is no issue for this lad. He is made for this trip.

Scorpion himself has produced several middle distance winners from 20f up to 24f. Might Bite is lethal because he inherited his fathers speed and that ability to inject speed in the middle of a race with his mothers stamina which others just cant seem to live with.

Winning the RSA as he did last, coming back to pass whisper, certainly didn’t suggest he was all out. Takes a fair horse to do that. Same in the KG this year. He was bone idle in front but the jump at the last clearly demonstrated he had bags left. He won that race with a mile to go after setting some serious fractions on the clock in the middle third of that race. He literally killed them off there and then.

I’d say they’ll ride him conservatively and send him on 3 or 4 out. Whip wont be drawn until he’s half way up the hill and past that shoot.[emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Kauto Abu said:
I have also ruled out Sizing John. Recent winners of the blue ribbon event have had much better preps in attempting to regain their crown and still failed.

Kauto Star, Long Run, Bobs Worth to name but a few. It’s very very hard to regain your title with everything going right never mind trying it with his prep. I also think it needs to be fairly soft to bring Native River into play as a winner of the race.

I’ve it down to two horses I think fit the trend of big race winners at Cheltenham. Horses where the season has flowed and everything has just seemed to go right for them. That’s Mite Bite & Road to Respect. The two in the field either side of the Irish Sea who have had perfect preps.

I’ve been backing Mite Bite since before his seasonal debut at Sandown from 8s and i’ve recently started chipping away at Road to Respect ew at 10s. I will probably do the forecast on the day.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


Although I'd agree with what your saying to some extent in regards of 2 horses doing nothing wrong and everything going right for them you could take the other view that there have been plenty of horses for one reason or another who've flopped mid season especially in the KG and gone on to win the Gold Cup. Imperial Commander, See more Business and Looks Like Trouble, Best Mate, Lord Windmere to name just a few so its not always that straight forward.

I haven't bought the Might Bite idling in the KG opinion at all. I do however think he's a better horse on better ground and I don't have any doubts on him being a strong stayer the only question for me is, is he good enough ? The Gold Cup will be the hardest race he's ever been in by quite some way so we'll find out. I wouldn't back him at current prices but respect he has a favourites chance. I do believe though if we get a proper soft ground Gold cup then he's any price you like.

Just to add to this really anyone drawing confidence from the way he won the RSA last year might want to take into context that even if he'd have kept a straight line on that day and beaten Whisper 10 lengths, Whisper was beaten a similar distance in the Stayers hurdle previously at the festival. Staying Hurdlers are generally a poorer bunch of animals than Grade1 3 mile Chasers. Comparing his Cheltenham form with his form on left handed flat tracks where he has always been better to boost the RSA form is dodgy ground to say the least.
 
Last edited:
Danny said:
The Gold Cup will be the hardest race he's ever been in by quite some way so we'll find out.
Click to expand...

I disagree, Danny. I don't think it's all that great a Gold Cup, and in terms of standard, it's probably not that much better than the King George.

Just to add to this really anyone drawing confidence from the way he won the RSA last year might want to take into context that even if he'd have kept a straight line on that day and beaten Whisper 10 lengths, Whisper was beaten a similar distance in the Stayers hurdle previously at the festival. Staying Hurdlers are generally a poorer bunch of animals than Grade1 3 mile Chasers. Comparing his Cheltenham form with his form on left handed flat tracks where he has always been better to boost the RSA form is dodgy ground to say the least.
Click to expand...

Whisper's huge run under top-weight in the Hennessy, is off-the-scale more relevant to stamina for a Gold Cup, than his outings in the Stayers Hurdle.

I've no idea what the last sentence actually means. Cheltenham is a left-handed track?
 
Of course its left handed Grass so the fact I slipped the words Left handed in is an irrelevant point should have read, flat tracks. What I was trying to say is that Whisper has always run better races at Aintree than he has Cheltenham and it would follow that Newbury is much more akin to Aintree.

His run in the Hennessy does look huge but as yet other than Total Recall winning a handicap hurdle of which he was thrown in nothing has really come out and franked the form and a lot of leading fancies in the race flopped the likes of American,Coneygree, Genie in a bottle who were all up there in the betting for it ran no sort of race. From what I've seen on the clock it was a good race though and would actually rate much better than Whisper had ever previously achieved much better from a time perspective than the RSA or the run against MB at Aintree.

I'd agree the Gold Cup doesn't look that good a race but i'd still say there will be more to test him in there than he's previously faced. I personally think there isn't a superstar amongst them or if there is I haven't spotted them .They all, including Might Bite look like the Bobs worths calibre more than they do the likes of Denman or Kauto Stars. But I suppose we won't know until they are put to the sword.
 
Last edited:
Nicky Henderson is on record as saying that until last season Whisper was the horse that perplexed him the most. He couldn’t figure him out but accredits Davy Russell’s to giving the horse confidence. He even made reference to it in the Irish Field Cheltenham magazine recently so not sure what bringing form post last year has to do with it.

He said the horse had him scratching his head far more than Jenkins ever did. He is clearly a far superior animal this past year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
I think as well Grass that I'm only looking at it from a betting perspective for those of you and there seem a few who hold tickets at 10's and 8's you have a cracking bet and if he was that price today I'd be loading on myself. I just disagree with those who think he's miles clear or that this will be a stroll in the park. If those comments are a little tongue in cheek then fair enough but I certainly don't think he'll be hacking up by any means.
 
Kauto Abu said:
Nicky Henderson is on record as saying that until last season Whisper was the horse that perplexed him the most. He couldn’t figure him out but accredits Davy Russell’s to giving the horse confidence. He even made reference to it in the Irish Field Cheltenham magazine recently so not sure what bringing form post last year has to do with it.

He said the horse had him scratching his head far more than Jenkins ever did. He is clearly a far superior animal this past year.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Henderson says a lot of things. Not all of them entirely accurate.
 
Danny said:
I think as well Grass that I'm only looking at it from a betting perspective for those of you and there seem a few who hold tickets at 10's and 8's you have a cracking bet and if he was that price today I'd be loading on myself. I just disagree with those who think he's miles clear or that this will be a stroll in the park. If those comments are a little tongue in cheek then fair enough but I certainly don't think he'll be hacking up by any means.
Click to expand...

There is no tongue-in-cheek.....the Biter will wipe his fu*cking arse with the lot of them.


OK....maybe a little tongue-in-cheek. :lol:
 
The handicapper dropped quite a few horses for their Hennessy/Ladbroke runs and I think only Total Recall and Whisper went up after it, so maybe it's not surprising only the winner and the third have done anything to frank the form since.
 
Grasshopper said:
I disagree, Danny. I don't think it's all that great a Gold Cup, and in terms of standard, it's probably not that much better than the King George.



Whisper's huge run under top-weight in the Hennessy, is off-the-scale more relevant to stamina for a Gold Cup, than his outings in the Stayers Hurdle.

I've no idea what the last sentence actually means. Cheltenham is a left-handed track?
Click to expand...

That's the sort of nonsense that puts punters away day after day.

Whisper has been around a long time and he's a very nice horse but he is way way short of top class.

He beat GMOH at the festival but when faced with topnotchers as danny rightly point out he was exposed again as short of top class.

He would again have been beaten out of sight in the RSA........so what? that's nothing new

Now we come to the Hennessy and he gives a stone to Total Recall and gets beat...........does that make him top class? I hardly think so...not even remotely so..............It was a dog race and old Regal Encore filled 3rd place 66/1 33/1 no hopers all the way back.

This is Call Me Lord stuff......beats a bunch om monkeys and suddenly he's CH or GC material.



Might Bite has achieved less than Sizing John and Native River and that is the truth of the matter and all this certainty stuff is BS...........He's not a Big Bucks Faugheen or Sprinter Sacre he ordinary in comparison and come March you will eat your words

pS you better hope it's not a better race than the King George or your horse is in trouble
 
Last edited:
Is it lost on you that Native River got beaten into second by Minella Rocco in last years Gold Cup. A horse who prior to that, when he actually stood up right, finished 3rd to Viconte Du Noyer & Warrantor!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
To suggest it’s not much better than the KG is stretching the truth a little Grassy. BDM is only top class around one track, Thistlecrack was gone and the rest were either untested at the distance or horses short of top class. If you’d struck that ante post bet on the GC rather than the KG I guarantee you’d be sweating a lot more over it.

The crabbing of Minella Rocco is also a little on the blinkered side. I’d love to see either of those two you mentioned get the better of Djakadam around Cheltenham. In fact you’ll find one of them about 300 lengths behind MR in the NH Chase, a race which went on to throw up loads of winners. It’s not his fault that he’s trained by a man who can only peak a horse once a year if he’s lucky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last years gold cup is looking a poor renewal to be perfectly honest. People crabbed last years champion hurdle as a poor renewal but in hindsight it looks a very good renewal with a superstar emerging. Every horse in that race has won again since and most of them in good graded races over hurdles or as chasers.

The Gold Cup looks a lot poorer now. Take the 1st 6 home, separated by only 10L. Only Sizing John and Native River have won again since. Add into the mix that More Of That got within 10L of Sizing John and you see it wasn’t vintage, not even near it.

Might Bite could really give this lot a thrashing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TheBear said:
To suggest it’s not much better than the KG is stretching the truth a little Grassy. BDM is only top class around one track, Thistlecrack was gone and the rest were either untested at the distance or horses short of top class. If you’d struck that ante post bet on the GC rather than the KG I guarantee you’d be sweating a lot more over it.

The crabbing of Minella Rocco is also a little on the blinkered side. I’d love to see either of those two you mentioned get the better of Djakadam around Cheltenham. In fact you’ll find one of them about 300 lengths behind MR in the NH Chase, a race which went on to throw up loads of winners. It’s not his fault that he’s trained by a man who can only peak a horse once a year if he’s lucky.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I don't agree, TheBear.

Danny's claim was "The Gold Cup will be the hardest race he's (The Biter) ever been in by quite some way". I still dispute that claim, and I stand behind the statement that it's not that much better than the King George.

MB clearly has the beating of all the UK horses, with the possible exception of Native River - and that's only because they've never met each other yet. And you could maybe extend it to Minella Rocco at a stretch, for the same reason......otherwise, there's not a 3m chaser trained here that you could say is better than those he faced at Kempton.

As far as the Irish challenge is concerned, I fail to see how it is stronger this year than last.

Sizing John looked a pale shadow of last season's horse over Christmas, and has been subject to negative reports since. Our Duke's physical problems are well documented, as are his jumping deficiencies, and - Road to Respect apart - the remainder are G1 horses in name only (imo), as they are largely exposed and/or inconsistent, have been beating each other in turn, and/or finishing in a heap when the principals have failed to run their race.

To me, it's a poor Gold Cup relatively speaking, with a handful of runners you would be worried about actually giving their running.

If any horses are going to rattle The Biter's cage, it will be Road To Respect, Native River and Our Duke - probably in that order - unless Sizing John makes a Lazarus-like comeback..........and even then, I'd fancy The Biter to serve it right up to him. But if SJ doesn't run to form, it's a poor-looking edition, and I would be surprised if MB didn't have the tools to win it comfortably.




 
Last edited:
Loving the unshakable confidence on the Biter, Nick. As you know I'm heavily invested myself, but I'm not quite as bullish as yourself.

I've Been looking at who to potentially cover with and for forecast/tricast bets. I keep coming back to Killultagh Vic. Has the back form - Spring and festival form (new course too). Beat thistle crack over 3m hurdles as TC was entering his prime year. Looked the winner all over at Leopardstown until falling. Probably still not fully exposed over fences. Stays the trip (imo).

Fall lto is the only negative really imo. Just see a lot more upside and potential in him than a lot of other runners. Have you a strong view either way on KV yourself?
 
You make some good points but I still don't agree.

As I didn't back him In the King George and haven't backed him for the Gold Cup I can say from a neutral standpoint that I had him as a much stronger favourite for the King George. I had a small poke on Fox Norton simply because he was unexposed at the trip and I'd missed the fancy prices on Might Bite. He looked to have all the credentials for that race and there were big question marks about his closest market rivals. It makes even worse reading in hindsight.

Just as a match race with the 2nd fav I'd be far more concerned of Native River getting the better of him around Cheltenham than I would BDM around Kempton (easy to say now maybe)

Then there's those you've listed who are all unexposed and could literally be anything (I'd add Killultagh Vic to that list). Who could you say that about in the King George? I think it says everything that he's only likely to face two of the opponents from the KG and they're 40 & 66/1.

Add in the Cheltenham quirk and it adds up to his toughest test by a long chalk.
 
Back
Top