Betfair Chase Haydock Park Sat Nov 24th

As unfit as Exotic Dancer was at Aintree?

I am not sure its even just a matter of being fit enough. Horses like My Way De Solzen, Exotic Dancer just need their first run to get their eye in...if your going to take on two of the best jumpers of recent years you need as much on your side as possible.

I am not saying MWDS would have won today with an earlier run but its not fair to judge him yet.
 
Yes, I know he was beaten by horses of less talent first time out last year, but I was disappointed with the way he dropped out today. Wrong to write him off on the basis of that, but I just cant really but my finger on why i dont really like the stayers and arkle winner. I still will oppose him in the best of company. And probably be proved wrong again.
 
He faded very quickly, I don't think he seemed fully fit to me. I think he will be a better horse next time out, but I don't see him beating either of the first two given a fair race.
 
KAUTO STARS AGAIN
By Martin Kelly, PA Sport


Kauto Star proved he is still the best chaser in the land as he bounced back to his brilliant best to win the Betfair Chase at Haydock for a second successive year.

Travelling sweetly for new jockey Sam Thomas, a huge leap at the third-last took him clear of My Way De Solzen.

However, Exotic Dancer, who chased home Kauto Star in the Gold Cup at Cheltenham, emerged as a real threat after the last.

But Paul Nicholls' stable star, the 4-5 favourite, showed real grit and determination to win by half a length.


Ollie Magern set his usual furious pace up front but the main protagonists had caught up by the fifth-last, where Kauto Star jumped to the front.



Robert Thornton was oozing confidence on My Way De Solzen and appeared to be travelling as well as anything before weakening rapidly after the second-last.



Barry Geraghty, riding Exotic Dancer for the first time, tracked Kauto Star until after the final fence but Thomas' mount showed just why he is a champion by holding off the challenge.



Beef Or Salmon ran on to claim third.

There had been plenty doubting Kauto Star after a lacklustre run at Aintree, where he was beaten by Monet's Garden.



But as Nicholls was quick to point out afterwards, in attempting to give Nicky Richards' grey over a stone in weight, he faced almost an impossible task.



The champion trainer said: "We're back on track, not that we were ever off it.



"I was never as disappointed last time as everybody else."

Nicholls went on: "Paddy (Brennan, on Ollie Magern) went bursting off in front and Sam had to change the tactics as we were going to drop him in.



"He then got left in front a little bit, but he has done the right thing and the horse has jumped and travelled.



"I said last time he would need the run at Aintree and there aren't many three-mile chasers who would have laid up with Monet's Garden that day.



"This and the Gold Cup have always been his targets, obviously there is one in between (King George VI Chase) but the Gold Cup is the race I want to win with him now.



"This shows we are back where we were."
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Nov 24 2007, 12:55 PM
Looks like Haydock is getting plenty of rain. Not sure how it will effect the principles.
I am feckin soaked, it was like Fairyhouse last December without the hurricane. It was worth it though, KS put in some blinding jumps and it was a treat to see a couple of awesome horses going at it hammer and tongs.
 
Amazing that Kauto beat Beefy by almost exactly as much as last year.

They're going to have to give the first two ratings comfortably over 180.
 
Looking at it again it was really KS's jumping down the back straight that made the real difference. Took lenghts out of the field.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 24 2007, 02:51 PM
Doesn't say much for King, then.
Oh come on Gareth, you can never tell til you get them on the track; and what's he got to train MWDS with at home, even with the horses he's got?

I'm not sure MWDS gets that trip in that ground, but given some of his speed figs last year, it's too early to say if he can give KS a race on Boxing Day. Will be interesting to see if they ride ED a bit closer to the pace, eg at least midfield, next time out. He's got such a finishing kick
 
Yes, hats off to horse and jockey. Some performance by Kauto who did not even seem to like being in front so soon. Seemingly he can only beat himself; who should turn him over ?
 
Headstrong - I was being sarcastic. It should be pretty clear from my other posts that I don't really believe that King had the horse miles off peak fitness without knowing it.

Even if he was on the biggest going day of his career, in absolute peak fitness, I would be astonished if MWDS was the 180+ horse that he needs to be to compete with Kauto and ED.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Nov 24 2007, 02:41 PM
Might they [ED's connections] consider avoiding Kauto and trying Leopardstown? Amazing that this horse doesn't have a Grade 1.
I would if i was them, fascinating if Denman goes there as well. It would give us a good idea how close to KS the latter really is.
 
Well I couldn't have got that more wrong if I tried, but hey thats life. Great race to watch and must say was really impressed with Sam Thomas.
 
I just saw it there as my soccer team were getting knocked out of the cup on penalties.

Two of the finest horses in the last two decades.

MWdS remains interesting for the King George, but he will need to run about a stone more than he has ever run to to catch these two horses.

I think Exotic Dancer will beat Kauto once this season.
 
Well that's the fastest rating I've ever recorded for a staying chaser I think, (about 5.25L's quicker than Best Mates 2004 Gold Cup). I've satisfied myself that it was significantly quicker than last year when he earned all sorts of rave reviews and really announced himself as the staying chaser they had to beat etc I took the cautionary step of checking what Dave Edwards had given, and low and behold, his Topspeed is indeed a career high water mark, quicker than his Tingle Creek even.

Urm...... I'm another one back at the drawing board, convinced as I was that I had a line of investigation that was pointing towards Denman. I think its distinctly possible that 3 top quality horses have emerged at the same time, and that Exotic Dancer is a truly unlucky one to have run into this generation.

As regards MWDS, I remain a fan and believe the Champion Chase would be his for the taking, based on last seasons respective runnings of the Arkle and the 2 mile blue riband. This might give Alan King something of a migraine in the following months as he tries to balance his obligation to his owners, and his desire to keep MWDS and VPU apart. I know if I owned MWDS I wouldn't be scarred of VPU in the slightest and would be happy to take him on with MWDS, who I already suspect is the superior horse. I certainly wouldn't be too keen to take on the RyanAir, when a potentially weak Champion Chase, with its extra prestige and prize money was lying at my mercy. The record of Arkle winners in the Champion is an additional reason behind the logic. In the last 10 years, the Arkle has been represented by 7 winners, between them they account for 5 Champion Chase wins, and 3 places. Only Tuitchev failed to make the frame.

Champleve, Ventana Canyon and Contraband failed to line up. Otherwise it reads well,

Voy Por Ustedes - WON
Well Chief - 2nd
Moscow Flyer - WON (and won 2 years later too)
Azertyuiop - WON
Tuitchev - 5th
Flagship Uberalles - 3rd but WON the following year
Or Royal - 2nd to One Man
 
Interesting Topspeed results - even Beefy's run to within a couple of pounds of his fastest!

Have the RP changed their standard times on he Haydock chase course? Hasn't there been a lot of changes made to the course? Not that that necessarily invalidates those ratings, as you can make a direct time comparison with the 3m handicap that immediately followed.
 
Great occasion to be there....

Not sure what to add....didnt feel an especially special race to be there but must admire the manner of front two. All I can say is that in the paddock Exotic Dancer looked absolutely fantastic. Such a quality racehorse - and that makes the winner so special. Subtley brilliant...the both of them
 
They've merged the hurdles and chase course together Gareth to give more space on the flat course. The old water jump could be seen as they lined up at the start, sad to see that go as it was the only natural water jump in Britain. Not too keen on the portable fences either now given one of the main reasons for using them was that they were easy to repair (within minutes) yet for one of the 'chases they had to bypass 2 out as it was damaged.

Martin
 
Originally posted by Irish Stamp@Nov 25 2007, 08:32 AM
They've merged the hurdles and chase course together Gareth to give more space on the flat course. The old water jump could be seen as they lined up at the start, sad to see that go as it was the only natural water jump in Britain. Not too keen on the portable fences either now given one of the main reasons for using them was that they were easy to repair (within minutes) yet for one of the 'chases they had to bypass 2 out as it was damaged.

Martin
That being the case then, the two courses still appear to have been riding significantly differently. At mile aggregates the hurdles course was;

-15.05
-17.75
-10.53
-13.45

but the chase course was ;

-5.23
-7.86

To some extent you can look at the corresponding 2006 fixture as 5 races run over the same distances, at the same venue, same time of year, and appear on both cards. The 0-140 chase was a 0-130 in 2006, otherwise they correlate.

The times to standard suggest the 2007 was broadly twice as slow, once you omit seek out a median figure. Indeed you can pretty well conclude this just by looking at the standards. (mile aggregates in brackets)

2006.......................................2007

-16.30 {-8.15}.........................-30.10 {-15.05}
-9.90 {-3.30}...........................-15.70 {-5.23} - Betfair Chase
-15.30 {-5.20}.........................-31.00 {-10.55}
-16.10 {-8.05}.........................-35.50 {-17.75}
-9.70 {-4.85}...........................-26.90 {-13.45}

The final race in the 2007 sample is the only one that's hinting at not necessarily being run at a true pace, otherwise there's a pretty well established ratio of 2:1. If we omit the slowest in each sample at a set aggregate (8F) we get -5.35 for last year and -11.07 this year. That's something like a ratio of 2.1 to 1, meaning that a tenuous projection would have Kauto Star running 6.93 at a mile, and 20.79 at 3 miles. That he's completed the course in a time that was -15.70 slow would suggest his performance is about 5 seconds faster than last years much heralded effort.

It's not the most reliable of methods admittedly, but it removes the need to use a class par as the race conditions are the same, and any discrepancies should be down to the ground conditions. shrug::
 
There was talk on Racing UK, Richard Hoiles instigated I believe, that the Betfair Chase must have been run over 2m. 7 1/2 furlongs not three miles.

I didn't here the full debate just the tail end of it, I think the suggestin was that the race was run over the same course as the hurdle race and that was advertised as being 2m 7 1/2 furlongs!?!?
 
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