Bloodstock 2011

SL -I know he was a 6f sprinter but he's producing some decent hurdlers - namely HOLLO LADIES, JUMBO RIO, RIO GAEL & KUDU COUNTRY plus a couple of minor winners too - look him up before dissing him.

ANSHAN, sadly now dead, was another unlikely candidate as Bar says but he also got the goods on the track. Same could be said of ABSALOM, too. Buried aways back will be some serious stamina influence, for sure.

One of the common denominations of all those were/are they're very good looking and tough horses, which is not to be sneezed at.

Controversial, I know, but has DOUBLE TRIGGER really lived up to expectations ? He got some unbelievably good mares to him but hasn't exactly set the world alight with his progeny 146 the highest rated so far.. not exactly a stunning record, is it ?
 
I HAVE looked him up, thank you. I also follow with interest the breeding of young NH stock so I do know something about NH pedigrees. If you want to use Captain Rio then fine but you've a long time to hope that it might get 2m over hurdles, with it very unlikely to get any further if it does indeed get the 2m in the first place. Ideally if you want to breed for stamina (as was stated in the first place) then I personally wouldn't consider Captain Rio in a million years.

I can't remember it being stated that this was an attempt to breed a Gold Cup winner or something rated 150+? Double Trigger has a good solid record with his NH stock and has bred many horses rated 100+, and was only a personal recommendation anyway.
 
Just a thought - if you wanted a jumper, would you start with a 45-rated sprinter in the first place? Can you really "inject stamina" other than through random chance? One owner/breeder opined to me in my youth that sending sprint mares to stamina-laden sires got you nothing but very slow 5f horses. How do those with experience in the bloodstock world view such a statement?


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Could I suggest, very politely, that if anyone wants to wind this out further, it transfers to Bloodstock?

I'm not sure the beginnings of a squabble on this particular part of the forum will do much to encourage new members.
 
rorydelargy said:
Just a thought - if you wanted a jumper, would you start with a 45-rated sprinter in the first place? Can you really "inject stamina" other than through random chance? One owner/breeder opined to me in my youth that sending sprint mares to stamina-laden sires got you nothing but very slow 5f horses. How do those with experience in the bloodstock world view such a statement?


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can I ask who who is attempting to breed a jumping horse with a 45 rated sprinter?
Acclamation is an out and out sprinter by royal applause and his progeny are winning over 2m N/H just to throw one into the mix
 
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Nothing wrong with DOUBLE TRIGGER as a cheap (£1,750) NH sire, but I thought OCP wanted a bit of Flat action first with the potential for staying, later, in NH. Trig has done better siring NH progeny than Flat progeny, imo. As TOBOUGG has begotten a number of nice winners in both codes, is reasonably priced and also nearish by (near Salisbury - not tooo far for a Devonian mare), I thought he'd be a decent pick.

What are your reasons for being against PASTERNAK as a choice, Shadow?
 
krizon said:
Nothing wrong with DOUBLE TRIGGER as a cheap (£1,750) NH sire, but I thought OCP wanted a bit of Flat action first with the potential for staying, later, in NH. Trig has done better siring NH progeny than Flat progeny, imo. As TOBOUGG has begotten a number of nice winners in both codes, is reasonably priced and also nearish by (near Salisbury - not tooo far for a Devonian mare), I thought he'd be a decent pick.


What are your reasons for being against PASTERNAK as a choice, Shadow?
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I disagree - there'sa fair bit wrong with him as a NH sire bearing in mind the results he has with the many quality mares sent to him - in my opinion. His brother has done better - often the case for some unknown reason. Also the way he was marketed and where he stood geographically didn't help much. Too many NH breeders round here have been disappointed with DT's stock, sadly. Great racehorse, though and maybe his daughters will be excellent broodmares - should be, as he was by a very good broodmare sire himself.

As to the crack about breeding from a 45 rated sprinted, that's a bit out of order. The mare was rated 60 at her highest, which is how she would be referred to as a broodmare. However, the fact she ran 93 times and obviously was as sound as a pound, won 10 times and picked up just under £40k in prize money tells me she is just the type of mare that deserves a chance at stud, as she's more than capable of breeding up. Personally, if she were mine, I'd stick to breeding like to like as speed is too easy to lose but I'm not breeding to race - sadly! Glory of Dancer was pretty much a disaster at stud, so his daughter's already performed way above expectations.

If you want a sire with plenty of stamina, BEAT HOLLOW was mentioned to me today.
 
Kri, I mentioned Double Trigger originally as a possible alternative to Tobougg after the latter was mentioned as although I like Tobougg and would put no-one off him, they both stand at the same place, DT is nearly half the proce of Tobougg, and is a guaranteed source of stamina (which was mentioned as a pre-requisite).

Personally, if I were sending a mare to a NH stud I'd be looking at Double Trigger, Lucarno, Tobougg, Rainbow High. I like Beat Hollow a lot but last time I looked he was far, far bigger than the £3k budget that was alluded to.

Rory is very right with his comments about slow 5f horses - or, as a mutual friend of ours will say, "you'll produce something that won't stay - and slowly".
 
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Ever thought of Proclamation? He has the look of a NH sire even though he's not marketed as such. £3K I think
 
Shadow Leader, as a general lurker on here rather than a poster I often think that opinion is what makes these boards worth reading.

With regard to Double Trigger I have heard both of the views presented here from NH trainers of repute.

I think as an Ascot Gold Cup winner and top class racehorse it is surprising he has not produced much on the flat. He has only sired 8 winning flat horses in the UK,winning a total of 17 races. The best was Royal Trigger who achieved a RPR of 80. Of course one would be happy to breed an 80 rated horse but as the best of the progeny it's not awe inspiring.

As a jump sire he has only produced 40 with a RPR of 100 or more, the best being Russian TRigger (RPR 146).

I don't know the quality of his books though, but it doesn't compare with the record of Kayf Tara.
 
Sorry Kri, didn't answer your Pasternak question. I just personally haven't seen a horse by Pasternak that I like in terms of it looking like a racehorse, and his record isn't the Mae West which is a shame as he was tough himself. However there may still be stamina doubts lurking as well in terms of NH stock, which would add up to negatives for me.

The NH breeding game is interesting in itself as personally, I think it should be looked at a lot more closely than it is currently. It's all very well breeding a mare to a sprinter or miler in a hope of 'injecting speed' (a misnomer in itself, as has been pointed out) and hoping that the horse will stay but it's not just staying that is the point, is it? It is my opinion that due to the influx of more and more purely flat bred - sprint bred if you like - horses to the winter game, the breed itself is being weakened. It's all well and good having a horse that you hope can stay 2m over hurdles but if it's 15.2hh and built like a whippet it's bones aren't going to be the strongest, are they? By sending these smaller built horses with stamina doubts over obstacles you are surely putting more and more physical pressure on their bones, pressure that, the smaller and daintier they are, the more risk there must be of them breaking down in some way or another? By breeding to tougher, more stamina-laden lines (on which it will be a lesser exertion to stay) with plenty of bone, hopefully you will breed horses that are sturdier and more able to cope physically with the demands of NH racing. By sending mare to 2yo sires - yes, like Captain Rio, but there are plenty of others as well - you are more likely to breed smaller, spindlier types who won't be so suited to the rigours of racing over obstacles, in my opinion. You have to give the youngstock every chance you can in the chosen discipline.

CJboy, I'm not saying Double Trigger is as good a sire as, or better than, Kayf Tara, or anything else. I'm offering him up as a personal opinion of a good, solid NH sire who is very cheap, and stands at the same stud as one of the horses originally mentioned, thus the pointer as being at the same place yet half the price and being a guaranteed stamina source. I can't say I'm surprised DT had produced little on the flat tbh, he's a solid NH sire, and I wasn't considering his flat stats. He is what he is, a solid, stamina laden, cheap sire of jumpers. One which I'd use anyday and hey, if they're not too shabby for Alan King and others, they're not too shabby for me. I know AK is a particular fan.
 
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I disagree with your opinion on Double Trigger, SL - simple as - why make it personal ?

My points were well made and balanced - I think/hope he'll make an excellent broodmare sire of NH horses but he hasn't hit the heights as hoped as a NH sire. So what ? If you don't agree with anything I write on here, that's fine but you would do yourself a greater service by simply disagreeing politely and refraining from making the really unpleasant comments you have.

If Rory has a problem with anything I've said, I reckon he's more than capable of putting together a reasoned reply himself without you needing to jump in.

I will continue to comment on any bloodstock questions posed on here because, like it or not, that is my area of expertise - if others disagree with me great - that's what a forum's all about, presumably but there really is no need to be so unpleasant about it.
 
I feel that Double Trigger has proved a little disappointing as a sire, rather too many slowcoaches, admirable racehorse though he was.

Unlike Kayf Tara, whose stock seem to have a liittle more speed and perhaps more size as well.

If there's one thing that NH mares tend to lack, it's speed, rather than stamina, and so a sprinter or miler can often a sensible stallion choice. One or two have already been mentioned, but I also recall stallions like the St James Palace winner Flamenco (of Totopoly fame) and the King's Stand winner Goldhill (sire of beefcake hurdler Comedy Of Errors).
 
Thank goodness Songsheet knows what they are talking about and has the facts instead of quoting the wrong information!
my mare had a flat rating high of 60 , she won off of a rating of 57, not a world beater but as she ran 93 times, won 10 races was placed 25 times, meaning one of every three races she was in the places, that's over 93 runs! she won one race at 7f the rest at 1m to 1m 2f.winning £40k in prize money!
there is no sense in trying to comparing N/H ratings to flat ratings on an equal level, as a guide in one of my mares last race's run, it was won by postmaster, postmaster was rated as low as 42 on the flat, however over the jumps, Postmaster has had a rating of 137! so does this make a 42 flat rated horse not good enough to race in N/H racing? jumps racing ratings can be easily three times the flat rating so quoting flat and jumps ratings do no justice to flat ratings what so ever!
loads of the horse picked from the flat to go jumping have ratings around 45 and have never won a race!
so Rory please tell me what horses you own? and if you have so many black type brood mares, why do you have the bigheaded attitude to the part time breeder trying to have some fun with there pets!
 
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I think your mare has a very creditable record, OCP - I'm sure there'd be a lot of people on here happy to have a horse return to the winner's enclosure 10 times, let alone the huge amount of placings, and come out of the game fit and sound. Considering the amount of mares being bred from which have only managed a single win and yet are deemed worthy of servicing, she more than deserves her broodmare status. What she brings to the table is soundness, the will to win, and the enjoyment of her career, so I'd not worry a jot about her past rating level. Ratings don't tell the whole story when it comes to breeding from mares (as against stallions). There is much more that's important to pass on. And God knows there are enough once high-rated stallions whose careers were clipped short by unsoundness.
 
I agree with Venusian on this one (:lol:) it has to be necessary, surely, to have the need to inject a good dose of speed every now and then into a decent NH pedigree. I don't believe the statement that there aren't plenty of NH breeders out there specialising in the breeding side - maybe because I'm in an area famed for its NH roots but there are a fair few down here who would certainly fit the bill for trying to build decent NH broodmare bands and I know of many more throughout the UK and Ireland too. But it's such a long term business that it's bound to suffer more wrong turns than breeding for the Flat will, purely because with the Flat you know your fate so much sooner, I guess!

Of course there can be soundness issues in both NH and Flat pedigrees but the problem now lies, surely, with the racing programme and the fact that owners want to see some success relatively quickly - hence the rise and rise of hurdling's success ? The 'old fashioned' chasers so beloved of many long gone trainers took huge amounts of time to mature, as we all well know and with the cost of getting your horse to that stage so prohibitive, obviously they are getting to be on the extinct side!! Which is sad and maybe not right but unless more is done to try and redress the balance, we live in a free market economy by choice and this is sometimes what happens.

However, the original question that prompted all this is what sire under £3K to use that might produce a dual purpose horse. Whether or not that's a desirable or even achievable project is, in my view, unlikely but she's not my mare, I'm not paying the bills so if OCP wants to go down that route, good on him/her (and no, even though they obviously live not far from me, I have no idea who they are). You pays your money and makes your choice!

I would still only breed her to the best sprinter/miler I could afford, though - the STOP THE MUSIC influence is too good to lose and she could throw a very decent Flat horse given some luck and a following wind!!

Re PROCLAMATION - I would tend to agree, Venusian - he does have all the makings of a potential decent NH sire, especially considering where he stands, although it is to be hoped that this year, with his 3yos to run for him, any success he may have as a sire should start to show itself.
 
Interesting discussion , Key of Luck is advertised for €4k. He gets good looking high class dual purpose horses . Tara stud.
 
Songsheet, thank you for agreeing with me (I think!). Btw, the Proclamation bit wasn't me.

Regarding "dual-purpose" sires, I think that breeders need to decide what kind of foal they want to breed from a mare (depending on the characteristics of the mare herself and those she's passed on to her offspring if she's already thrown a few), and then make a positive stallion selection one way or another, flat or NH.

There's a danger of falling between two stools and ending up with something that, on paper at least, is neither fish nor fowl. If you go the NH route, you shouldn't let your choice be influenced by thoughts of "Well, if the foal looks precocious and not too big, then someone like Richard Hannon might buy it as a yearling for a lot of money". He won't.

Best go for broke on the NH side, at least you'll make big savings on the stallion fee, unless you're in the Presenting, Flemensfirth, Kayf Tara league.
 
Or maybe MIDNIGHT LEGEND ? He seems to be firing them in regularly, although I note his fee has gone up (which is fair enough!).
 
Best go for broke on the NH side, at least you'll make big savings on the stallion fee, unless you're in the Presenting, Flemensfirth, Kayf Tara league
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I'm not so sure there is a "different league" cost wise? OK Flemensfirth is expensive at €10K, as is Yeats (same?). However Kayf Tara is £5000 and and for £2k more than an average sire you get the champion.

I am into French breeding more than British and for me the best value stallion in Europe is ASTARABAD
 
I find this very interesting. There are a lot of places at the top NH table up for grabs, with the recent deaths of horses like Sir Harry Lewis, Alderbrook, Kahyasi, Saddler's Hall and Dom Alco. Even Bob's Return and Zaffaran still have runners on the track.

Ex flat sires such as Indian Danehill, Tobougg and Bach are hardly going to cut it. At the very top table at least.

There are high hopes for Yeats, Milan, etc.

But we could be looking at horses based abroad or brought in from abroad like Robin des Champs, Astarabad and Network rising up the ranks.

I am aware that this isn't answering the original question!
 
There was a good pullout in the RP a few weeks/months back on the subject of the good French stallions - Califet is one who's getting good youngsters (3 and 4yo hurdlers) and closer to home (UK and Ireland) the ex-Sir Michael Stoute trained stayer Gamut has done well with his first 2 runners in points in Ireland with Killiney Castle winning at Askeaton on debut for Pat Doyle and Another Harbour unseating and finishing runner-up from two starts in Maidens.
 
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