Bloodstock 2011

Not quite sure where your logic is with regard to TOBOUGG v YEATS, Bar - other than YEATS will get the better mares. TOBOUGG has a very attractive pedigree for both codes and appears to be getting tough progeny, which has to be half the battle for a start! I hope they both make it to the top as we need all the quality sires we can get. Hopefully, there's nothing 'ex' yet about TOBOUGG as Flat sire.

France certainly seems to be able to produce very good NH sires but again, they have far better incentives for breeders that we do, making breeding for NH an attractive proposition. Here you need blind optimism and bottomless pockets!
 
I am not having a pop at Tobougg, and I readily admit that you (and indeed many others) know more about breeding than I.

But to explain my logic. Tobougg was initially marketed purely as a flat sire by Darley, who would have a chance of having 2yo (given his own juvenile record), but also of progressing (given his race record).

He didn't cut the mustard, and was sold by Darley to East Burrow Farm, and then on to Clarendon. His results were by no means a disgrace, and he got okay results. But he has moved from Darley, to being a dual purpose sire.

He has shown qualities as a sire in NH. That is probably where his future lies. But he has also probably shown that he is not going to be the next Old Vic. No shame in that.

The logic of Yeats vs Tobougg is that Yeats has all the chances to become a top NH sire. Of course most stallion careers don't deliver on promise, but if one of the two is to be seen in the top 5 NH sires consistently come a few years time, it is going to be Yeats.
 
Just for clarity, TOBOUGG is still owned by the same people - the Haydons - just moved from the back of beyond (aka Witheridge) to a more sensible location near Salisbury!!
 
Bar, I can guarantee you that my knowledge of bloodstock is extremely limited and the more time I spend with stock, the more I know I don't know..

And I sure as heck know sfa about the betting and financial world most of the rest on this forum move with ease around.

But at least I aware I am deficient in those areas and wouldn't presume to try and claim different!
 
I'd half have a look at Notnowcato. His pedigree is quite sharp being by Inchinor out of a Cadeaux mare but he was a tough honest 1m2f performer. I see Roger Charlton has a nice 2yo by him up on his website.
 
It's a bit of a myth re: the French NH stallions. The majority of the big races are still won by Irish Stallions.

Also Yeats is currently a flat stallion and he had plenty enough speed when he was younger to believe he may be a success in that category.
 
krizon said:
Considering the amount of mares being bred from which have only managed a single win and yet are deemed worthy of servicing,.
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:whistle: that would include me :lol: mind you - shes turned out enough offspring that arent too shabby that mine will hopefully be ok. (I own the aforementioned Petrovna - in foal to Hellvelyn)

I seem to remember being taught millions of years ago that sprinters usually made up into halfway useful hurdlers if you could settle them.... though the "rules" have changed a zillion times since then Im sure !!!!
 
In the context of 'are deemed worthy of servicing' - there are one-hit wonders who shouldn't be bred from for all the usual reasons (inconsistency, lousy temperament, unsoundness in wind or limb, etc.) Even if poor wee PLACE THE DUCHESS managed to rip one off now, I wouldn't think her 'worthy of servicing', Troods. There are also one-hit wonders who've gone out just once and won very well and then met with an accident which has stopped their career progressing - if the breeder felt that the one win pointed to enough merit, then by all means put them in foal. Most of putting mares in foal goes to context - the context of them having a decent pedigree, a sound constitution, a good temperament (even an aggressive one doesn't matter if she's Alpha on course, too, like SONGSHEET!), and a genuine effort made on course. Good looks are not particularly important, even some minor conformation faults, provided such an animal goes to a stallion likely to put them right, not add to them! But what I think is always bad to see is a non-winning mare being bred to, and poorly-made one-timers who you can be pretty sure will pass on their weaknesses to the baby. But, overall, I'd rather see a batch of walks back to the winner's or placed horse's circle like Orchard X Paddocks' mare than one that is virtually a stranger to it!
 
Kri - I was joking,not having a go !! Bearing in mind what I learnt in my last foray into breeding, if I went back and did it all over again,theres no way Id have bred from my first horse - it was a disaster waiting to happen - and happen it did.

Totally agree with careful choosing of the mares and stallions - and there are some stallions that I wouldnt touch with someone elses bargepole - even though people who know FAR more than me about these things are convinced would be perfect !!!
Id love to breed for NH - but right now I dont think that its an option (not for Red anyway,mores the pity!!) though in an ideal world I wouldnt be adverse to giving my flat racer a spin over hurdles if it showed enough aptitude for jumping (and Id make damn sure it was schooled properly!!) why the heck not have a go if it turns out to be capable....

OCPs mare is the kind of horse we would have looked for at the sales - consistant, tough and enough placings to be a lot of fun for the owners :)
 
I know you weren't having a go, sweetheart, but I wasn't having a go at lesser mortals than ATTRACTION - who, of course, nobody would've thought of breeding from on the basis of conformation! In fact, seeing how one or two august previous forum members were discouraged from buying a share in her (to their undying regret), few would've thought of even bunging her into a Class 5 Maiden, based on that.

As for Flatties facing hurdles - I'm no more against that than them going on the eventing or showjumping, bar that they must learn, as you say, to jump them properly. Lovely when you see the correct low parabola being made over them, with take-offs and landings not detracting from the stride. Unfortunately, not seen often enough!
 
Sheikh said:
Oh really , is that a white flag already than, thanks for that.
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He was always expected to be a dual purpose sire at best, surely ? He may well breed some high class Flat horses - no reason why he shouldn't - but I bet there were NH breeders queuing up with top class NH broodmares to send to him last season and a lot more will be waiting in the wings for when his fee drops, as it will and booking their NH mares in to him.
 
It would be nice if Yeats were to be given some decent chances to make it as a flat sire. Of course, it's always odds against, whatever a horse's aptitudes.

Don't forget he showed top class form over 1 1/4 and 1 1/2 miles - you could say that his 2+ miles form was a bonus.

But most breeders automatically assume that this must mean that he can only impart stamina and lack of precocity, as though being given the chance to race over long distances somehow altered his genetic makeup!

I'm not sure that many breeders have even heard of Gregor Mendel.
 
Sheikh said:
Oh really , is that a white flag already than, thanks for that.
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Not at all - if an owner wants to send a high class NH (or dual performer) mare to him, why turn them away? He's unlikely to get dreg mares on the basis of his fee and Coolmore are good at sorting the wheat from the chaff. The two I've seen to date both out of flat mares are a very nice advertisement for him - sound, good looking and use themselves in walk.
 
Songsheet said:
He was always expected to be a dual purpose sire at best, surely ? He may well breed some high class Flat horses - no reason why he shouldn't - but I bet there were NH breeders queuing up with top class NH broodmares to send to him last season and a lot more will be waiting in the wings for when his fee drops, as it will and booking their NH mares in to him.
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Hmmm not sure what you mean 'at best'. Obviously as he stayed becoming a NH sire was always a possibility. As already mentioned he had plenty of speed and is from the same cross as Montjeu. His family is full of milers and 1m 2f horses. It seems to me that sending NH mares to him at this early stage of his career will discourage people with good flat mares from sending them to him. It's like they are pre-empting his failure as a flat stallion.

On the plus side is fee will drop like a stone and I'll be able to afford him :)
 
There are masses of them in any foal sales catalogue, Miesque. The last one I bought (out of Goffs) is unraced, due mostly to her owner having bought her and gone to sleep. She is by DANETIME and so far, her first foal, a colt now called TRY THE CHANCE (with Michael Channon) has won on debut at Bath and come 2nd in his second run at Leicester. He's yet to have a third.

It would go to pedigree and the reasons why the mare wasn't raced, wouldn't it? If the mare comes from a good family but picked up an early injury, say, and wasn't able to race, then why not try? You'd soon know from the first foal or two and if they were duds, you'd finish with her. And yes, if she couldn't be ridden, shouldn't be bred from again, and it wasn't possible to keep her as a nanny to the yearlings (like Songsheet's dear old REACH THE WIND is now at 23), then I'm afraid one would have to be entirely pragmatic about this being a business, and put her down. There is a point at which it's absurd cluttering up the world with dead-end animals. That was certainly the point reached in Ireland, if not the UK, with the foals offered and rejected during 2008-2009, and many of their mothers, too.

But if you have a good-looking, sound, nicely-bred mare who had successful parents, but who didn't make it to the course, then there's no reason why not to try her with a middle-range sire.

I look on it a bit like this: there are loads of bright youngsters who don't go to university, for one reason or another. That's no reason to turn them down for a job. The proof will be in the future performance, yes?
 
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By the way, pages 57-60 of the latest edition of TB Owner & Breeder mag has a good article on the resurgence of British NH stallions, by Emma Berry. It's a bit long to type out in full and I have to go out, but in very, very brief, here's the gist of it:

Britain has a mountain to climb to draw level with the current top five of KING'S THEATRE, OSCAR, PRESENTING, BENEFICIAL and FLEMENSFIRTH (all Irish). KT's strength is his extremely good strike rate of winners-to-runners progeny (38%), with his offspring including MENORAH, VOLER LA VEDETTE and CUE CARD having already earned over £1m.

Of the active sires on the table only one other can match this - MIDNIGHT LEGEND, who's done it the hard way, covering fewer than 20 mares in his first season, his book has now grown to 130 in 2009, after which his book was restricted. Stud owner Kathleen Holmes said "We're being very selective with him now. We used to cover anything we could, (my italics) but he's not getting any younger and I don't think it's good for stallions to be covering really big books. He'll cover a max of 80 this year. Most jumps stallions are dead by the time they make it: you need at least 8 to 10 years before you see results."

(Emma does a lot of fill which we don't need to read, to be honest, but we eventually get down to):

KAYF TARA (Overbury Stud), ALFLORA (Shade Oak Stud), whose good chasers this season include WAYWARD PRINCE and WISHFULL THINKING. Shade Oak's Peter Hockenhull believes there'll be a big scrap between KAYF TARA, MIDNIGHT LEGEND and ALFLORA for NH winners. He's added a new sire, RECHARGE (CAPE CROSS - REBELLINE) to the stud as a SADLER'S WELLS outcross.

Another new sire, at Yorton Farm, is SULAMANI (ex Darley and three seasons in France). Yorton's David Futter says he was surprised by the amount of NH breeders using the horse. Mary Reveley booked two good mares and is pleased with the 4 and 5 y.o.'s she now has by him out of them. Another user is Richard Aston of Goldford Stud because of the stallions' toughness and soundness. He has sent the dams of RIVERSIDE THEATRE and VENALMAR to SULAMANI and, along with this stallion, will also be using BLACK SAM BELLAMY and SHIROCCO this season.

Outside the acknowledged NH sires there's a swathe of middle-distance Flat stallions who have proved capable of siring high-class runners under both codes. For many years SADLER'S WELLS led in this regard and his sons dominate the jumping table, with MONTJEU attaining decent results from a select band of jumpers.

HERNANDO, GALILEO and SELKIRK all perform this dual role with credit and a young sire whose first crop yielded black-type juveniles last year, but who has found favour in NH circles, is SHIROCCO. Grade 1-winning hurdler UNITED has just produced her first foal (a filly - charming photo shown) by SHIROCCO who, like recent NH recruits GETAWAY and SCHIAPARELLI, is by MONSUN. UNITED will remain in Britain this season to visit BLACK SAM BELLAMY, who is starting to establish himself and has one of the best pedigrees in the studbook.

Another top-class jumping mare about to produce her first foal by KAYF TARA is the Welsh National winner L'AVENTURE. Owner Christopher Harriman says she will stay with KAYF TARA for at least one more season until we see the type of offspring he's producing. The mare's not fully TB so her offspring would be eligible for AQPS races in France.

David Brace of Dunraven Stud near Bridgend, which stands DR MASSINI, has extended the pool of British jumps stallions in Wales, with BACH for 2011. BACH'S Grade 2 Adonis Juvenile Novices' Hurdle winner HEBRIDEAN, a Group 3 winner on the Flat for his trainer/breeder Aidan O'Brien, is out of a DR MASSINI mare. Brace says the timing's been wonderful with DR MASSINI, who covered his first book of mares at Dunraven last year and had plenty of interest from both British breeders and from the Irish who'd used him before in Ireland.

There is a diverse range of NH stallions available in Britain, with the Shropshire set having strength in depth. But for commercial breeders, the field narrows considerably. Sticking with established names is one way to cut down on risk, but when cost-cutting is uppermost in many minds, perhaps this is the season when British NH breeders will opt to keep mares at home, and take a chance on one of the many young stallions these shores offer.

Then, a table, entitled WHERE TO FIND THE JUMPING BOYS:

BASFORD STUD, Glos
Home to KADASTROF, one of the few British-based NH sires with jumping form; and PASTERNAK (sire of LITTLE JOSH)

BEECH TREE STUD, Somerset
APPLE TREE, sire of the ultra-tough LOUGH DERG; and TAMURE

BEECHWOOD GRANGE STUD, Yorkshire
DESIDERATUM - well-bred, has first-crop 3 y.o.'s

CLARENDON FARM, Wiltshire
DOUBLE TRIGGER and TOBOUGG (moved from East Burrow Farm, Devon)

COLMER STUD, Dorset
ARKADIAN HERO, dual purpose son of the great TREMPOLINO; MAN AMONG MEN, and WACE

CONDUIT FARM, Oxon
KIRKWALL, sire of the versatile ORCADIAN

DAIRY HOUSE STUD, Wilts
SEPTIEME CIEL, VICTORY NOTE, and CROSSPEACE (the sire of the good novice hurdler PEPE SIMO)

DUNRAVEN STUD, Mid Glamorgan
BACH and DR MASSINI, both bought from Coolmore's jumps div in Ireland

GIRSONFIELD STUD, Northumberland
BAHRI, recently delivered from Ireland

LITTLETON STUD, Hants
NORSE DANCER, first crop now 3 y.o.'s, at the stud of his owner/breeder Jeff Smith

LODGE FARM, Cambridgeshire
NEEDLE GUN, sire of prolific winner YES SIR

LOUELLA STUD, Leicestershire
Cheltenham Festival winner NOMADIC WAY, RAINBOW HIGH and DENOUNCE

MICKLEY STUD, Shropshire
BEAT ALL, CENTRAL PARK and TBA award-getter for leading sire of steeplechase winners, OVERBURY

THE NATIONAL STUD, SUFFOLK
PHOENIX REACH's eldest runners are only 3 but include several winners; he recently joined the stallion parade at Cheltenham

NUNSTAINTON STUD, Co. Durham
DAPPER (half-brother to ALBORADA); GREAT PALM, sire of Festival winner GREAT
ENDEAVOUR

OVERBURY STUD, Glos
KAYF TARA, leading NH sire for 2009/10; SAGAMIX, and SCHIAPARELLI

PITCHALL STUD, Warwickshire
MIDNIGHT LEGEND, enjoying a great season alongside PASSING GLANCE

SHADE OAK STUD, Shrops
A mix of established and new sires with ALFLORA, BLACK SAM BELLAMY, GRAPE TREE ROAD, FAIR MIX, and RECHARGE

VAUTERHILL STUD, Devon
Home of KAUTO STONE's sire WITH THE FLOW, RELIEF PITCHER, and BANDMASTER

WOOD FARM STUD, Shrops
Classic winners BOLLIN ERIC, ERHAAB, and LUCARNO

YORTON FARM, Shrops
INDIAN DANEHILL, REVOQUE, and new boy SULAMANI, back from France

The list does not include stallions which are not specifically represented as NH or dual purpose sires.
 
I used SULAMANI deliberately during his first season precisely because I could see him being dual purpose and the mare in question suited him. Got a filly, though, so not quite the desired result!

TAMURE is another stallion who has done well with extremely limited opportunities.
 
As has Needle Gun - didn't realise he'd moved to Lodge Farm. He stands for the ridiculously low fee of £350. And he gets tough multiple winners - Yes Sir and the wonderful Fully Loaded (not that I'm biased or anything!). If Fully Loaded is anything to go by I'd vouch for temperament as you could have had a child lead him round at the races.
 
An interesting and well thought out reply, Krizon, thank you. NH breeding is far from my area of expertise butI'm always willing to learn!

Although breeding for the flat, my own Danehill mare is unraced. She'd proven herself by producing a winner before I bought her though so not quite the same as starting with an unraced maiden.
 
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