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If he'd been managed differently he might even have trained on! :lol:
We'll never know. He might make a good sire of sprinters, if not he will presumably not last long in the current climate
 
Pretty much my point - he won two early season group twos as a two year old and then did the square root of feck all. Not something that we need standing at stud in an industry already full of shit sires.
 
Shadow Leader said:
Pretty much my point - he won two early season group twos as a two year old and then did the square root of feck all. Not something that we need standing at stud in an industry already full of shit sires.
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Yes, so he was precocious and a dual grp 2 winner :confused:
 
Oh, super - more low-priced stallions for people to send their rubbish to! (I'm assuming they won't ask more than £800 for him?) What is the point of that? Not just in today's climate, but in any. Sheikh, nice to have him as your horse, winning a couple of decent enough pots, yes. But as a bloodline? Why would you send a mare of any quality to him? It's not as if he was showing great promise and untimely injured by another horse, for example, and unable to continue. You have what is an early burn-out - not what you'd want as a marketing ploy for your foals, I'd venture.
 
Connections of Winker Watson were still of the opinion that he was a G1 performer thwarted right through his career; I'm of the opinion that they shouldn't be listening to Peter Chapple-Hyam who is the worst judge of his horses of any classic winning trainer in the history of the sport.
 
Winker Watson was also very well known as an utter dog, another mark against him. I can't for the life of me see the point in standing him at stud, especially when you look at the way he was for most of his career.
 
What they set the price at for Winker watson is irrelevant. The issue is whether he is qualified. He was precocious and a dual grp 2 winner at 2. Most horses who's career starts early do not train on but their precocity has been proven which for a breeder is a must.Early burnout may have been as a result of being trained/campaigned early or that suspect temperment or both . If he has temperment issues than that would be a turn off for many although it doesn't put many off Montjeu.
I do not know how he is conformation wise but he stood up to racing early and managed a couple of decent efforts at 3 so it can't be bad. In this day and age where we have Northern dancer coming out our ears I'd welcome any qualified newcomer who is an outcross.
To answer your question I wouldn't send a mare of proven quality to him but I'd let the people who are standing him prove him first and judge him on his offspring.
Forgot to mention his dam side. It's ok, some blacktype but no stars.Bit on the weak side.
 
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But that's the point of overbreeding at the moment, Sheikh! Too many mares not of proven quality going to too many stallions ditto. How low do you want the bar to be? There are plenty enough of proven sprint stallions, even some with ND outcrosses, and proven sprint mares, to supply the UK's need for speed for years to come. And at the fee that's quoted, these are available for no more, with breeders' deals to be done. Sorry, I often agree with what you write, but not on Winker! Cute name, and lovely to own, of course. But not a good breeding prospect, believe me. Unfortunately, owners can be gulled into thinking that every G3 is just a G2 waiting to happen, and that every G2 is a G1 just round the corner. They also then delude themselves into thinking that they have a cash machine at stud - yes, he might get a few mares, but I fear they'll be at the low end of the scene, which is precisely what everyone's been aerated about for years now. Overproduction through rubbish mares, poor stallions. Marvellous.
 
Sheikh said:
Yes, so he was precocious and a dual grp 2 winner :confused:
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Surely the point is that he might have had a different career path with another kind of trainer. PCH is reputed to push his 2yr olds very hard indeed, and that can compromise not only their soundness but also their appetite for the game. I would agree with Sheikh that WW is worth a try and if he gets few winners, too bad, he will vanish to India or wherever. But he is an outcross option for those with sprinting mares
 
krizon said:
But that's the point of overbreeding at the moment, Sheikh! Too many mares not of proven quality going to too many stallions ditto. How low do you want the bar to be? There are plenty enough of proven sprint stallions, even some with ND outcrosses, and proven sprint mares, to supply the UK's need for speed for years to come. And at the fee that's quoted, these are available for no more, with breeders' deals to be done. Sorry, I often agree with what you write, but not on Winker! Cute name, and lovely to own, of course. But not a good breeding prospect, believe me. Unfortunately, owners can be gulled into thinking that every G3 is just a G2 waiting to happen, and that every G2 is a G1 just round the corner. They also then delude themselves into thinking that they have a cash machine at stud - yes, he might get a few mares, but I fear they'll be at the low end of the scene, which is precisely what everyone's been aerated about for years now. Overproduction through rubbish mares, poor stallions. Marvellous.
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It's ok to disagree :)
 
Surely the point is that dozens of horses might have had a different career path with another kind of trainer, Sara? That's a wander into La-La Land, not reality. Different jockey, different going, different track - choose one from Column A and two from Column B as to why serious amounts of promising horses get no further than a certain point.

Why on earth would you want to use this horse? By your own reasoning, he's untried at being better than his early promise. Not a great premise for using him, is it? There are other, much better outcrosses if you really feel the need for one, which many breeders don't. You buy an ordinary mare for, say, £7K, £3.5 on Winker, then rack up a few thousand more in the care of a mare and foal inc. half a grand for your sale entry, another half grand on prep, transport, etc. and seriously expect you'll get a profit out of that? You'd be hard pressed to see a third of your money back at the sales, if you got any at all.

There's no shortage of good, proven sprint sires who actually went on to build on their 2 y.o. careers, better than him, for the same fee or close enough, and it's not 'too bad' if he doesn't get many winners - would you like to be the buyer from a breeder with that sort of attitude? And don't delude yourself, either, that India is a dustbin for British cast-offs. They've had their own high-class studs going very well for decades, breeding sound, hardy animals suited to their climate, thank you.

Sheikh - ;) You betcha!
 
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Why on earth anyone would even consider sending a mare to Winker Watson is beyond me. So far as I'm concerned he's a classic case of a horse that shouldn't be standing at stud. So what if he was precocious - the rest of his age group soon caught him up and overtook him, I personally don't think his form or his temperament is good enough for him to be considered a decent stallion prospect. This is a near perfect example of why there are so many problems in over-production of TBs; not only too many poor mares being bred from but far too many mediocre horses being stood at stud.
 
Choisir sires first Group 1 winner

With Starspangledbanner going two better than his sire, by taking out yesterday's Group 1 $1 million Caulfield Guineas over the mile at Caulfield.

Here are some pictures of this flashy and very handsome looking young colt, who is probably the best looking horse in Australia at the moment.

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Photo courtesy of www.racingandsports.com.au

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Photo courtesy of Paul Roverre at The Age
 
I think his next run will be in the Cox Plate. He is a worthy contender, and think he might actually get away with it out in front, if he were to lead, due to the way the track races at the Valley.
 
Shadow reckon he has a bad temperment...what else ? Do you reckon Grp 2 winners in general should not be standing.

So what if he was precocious
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Guineas and Derby winners are precocious it's half the battle.
 
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There are far too many stallions standing who are in the £2K - £5K bracket who shouldn't be. WINKER WATSON was a possible propsect because he's PICCOLO's best to date and there isn't one to follow him. PICCOLO is one of those pretty useful horses who consistently sires winners - not top class but winners all the same - from all sorts of mares. Trouble is, he gets a few horror stories too.
 
Headstrong said:
Surely the point is that he might have had a different career path with another kind of trainer. PCH is reputed to push his 2yr olds very hard indeed, and that can compromise not only their soundness but also their appetite for the game. I would agree with Sheikh that WW is worth a try and if he gets few winners, too bad, he will vanish to India or wherever. But he is an outcross option for those with sprinting mares
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Im not sure about the pushing them hard from my own experience.
 
I've not necessarily got anything against group 2 winners standing at stud if, on the balance of their form, they are consistent and upholding that form. Winker Watson won his two year old races, disappeared for a year then lost the plot completely. He was inconsistent, clearly had problems (he disappeared for a year) and when he did reappear he had completely lost the thread and showed signs of dubious temperament. Personally I don't think he's good enough to stand and I think that anybody considering sending a mare to him needs their head read.
 
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