Brexit

Brexit, Stay or Leave.

  • Stay

    Votes: 28 59.6%

  • Leave

    Votes: 19 40.4%
  • Total voters
    47
clivex said:
The far left is terrified of power.

I can't see how labour can ever appeal to the wider electorate which includes a high number that voted for them last time around whilst the membership pulls the strings. The whole creation of the Momentum group was designed to create an immovable cultish block of blockheads that will hold sway over the voting. Its a slow or even quick death of the party

We need a new left of centre party to break away asap
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Agree with all of this.

Momentum are a very deranged and dangerous bunch.

Corbyn will literally have to be dragged away though, and if re-elected, he will happily stay leader even if he doesn't have enough labour MPs to fulfill shadow cabinet roles...
 
Momentum is essentially a reincarnation of Militant Tendency isn't it?

Which was largely responsible for the formation of the SDP

For Corbyn and McDonnell read Foot and Benn

Deja vu
 
Hamm said:
Agree with all of this.

Momentum are a very deranged and dangerous bunch.

Corbyn will literally have to be dragged away though, and if re-elected, he will happily stay leader even if he doesn't have enough labour MPs to fulfill shadow cabinet roles...
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Yes and he's being pushed to do so by those that fundamentally dislike the labour party, i.e. his chief advisor

This is ideology and there is a great deal actual hatred behind the scenes. The baiting of the jewish mp yesterday even looked like a setup. Don't wish to get into conspiracy theory at all but look at the leaked subsequent chat the between baiter and JC

one solution would be to remove Flabbot and send her to europe for negotiating Brexit. Firstly that would remove a blockage in the u bend of labour but also europe would cave into every demand within an hour. can you imagine it? in fact they would give us Belgium just to get rid of her
 
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clivex said:
Yes and he's being pushed to do so by those that fundamentally dislike the labour party, i.e. his chief advisor

This is ideology and there is a great deal actual hatred behind the scenes. The baiting of the jewish mp yesterday even looked like a setup. Don't wish to get into conspiracy theory at all but look at the leaked subsequent chat the between baiter and JC

one solution would be to remove Flabbot and send her to europe for negotiating Brexit. Firstly that would remove a blockage in the u bend of labour but also europe would cave into every demand within an hour. can you imagine it? in fact they would give us Belgium just to get rid of her
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What the phuck would you do with Belgium?
 
simmo said:
Usually Icebreaker screaming uncontrollably about killing terrorists.
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And your method of dealing with terrorists would be ?
Perhaps enroll them on trans-gender studies degree courses to turn their darling little minds away from all that old -- you know -- beheading lark?
Or maybe implement Obama's solution of jobs-for-jihadi's ?

I prefer Israel's solution.
 
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She was singled out in a very nasty manner. The creep should've been taken to one side and beaten to a pulp. Obviously it is not going to shout it explicitly but the old media conspiracy;jews and female (as with the harassment of laura k the bbc correspondent ) mix certainly has a whiff about it

Corbyn smirked through the attacks on laura and pointedly refused to engage before or after the attacks on ruth
 
No. Why? This is an extention of this weeks events in many ways

thatcher resigned when she had the support of over 200 MPs . Corbyn has 40 and is still sitting there.
 
the wasted career here is osbourne's. Yes he's been clumsy at times but this government had to come in at a pretty bad time, took hard decisions and got re elected. Yes he's made some mistakes up to the referendum and maybe austerity was too severe but the bottom line figures of where the uk was/is we're good by anyone's standards.

i don't believe that we are going to be seeing better leadership going forward whoever wins.

warbler.. Your assertion that this is the worst premiership in memory is not for me. Heath, latter major and wilson are we're surely the contenders for that prize
 
clivex said:
No. Why? This is an extention of this weeks events in many ways

thatcher resigned when she had the support of over 200 MPs . Corbyn has 40 and is still sitting there.
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In that case, good luck wasting your breath, spoiling for a fight. Simmo sounds like he might be up for it, but I don't reckon he has the patience to indulge you like I did back in the day.
 
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Talking about one of the party leaders on a discussion which has been partly about party leaders. Problem?

perhaps we should go back to your 3rd form descriptions of Gove instead
 
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Talk of Party leaders is fine, but I can see where this is headed.

Ordinarily, I'm all for threads meandering into other areas, but insofar as Israel/Palestine is concerned, we have heard all - and I mean all - of it before. There is absolutely nothing new to learn about the situation, and given no-one - and I mean no-one - has budged one inch from their held position during any discussion of the subject on here, I am simply pointing-out that it is wasted breath.

As I said, discuss it if you wish, but it will all be nothing more than a repetition of everything we have heard before, and is therefore pointless and pretty-much tedious.

Gove brings out the worst in me. What can I tell you.
 
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Aren't you reading the posts at all? I was referring to his pretty disgusting behaviour during and after the abuse meeted out to a Jewish female mo who was clearly very upset. This must surely have seriously driven away any last remnants of support aside from his bigoted clique

his is clear baiting parallels between Isis and Israel were not unexpected. Nothing more to say about that

Aside from that, the subplot where he is simply refusing to go, with his "glorious leader" membership backing him, is critical
 
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clivex said:
warbler.. Your assertion that this is the worst premiership in memory is not for me. Heath, latter major and wilson are we're surely the contenders for that prize
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If I get round to it Clive, I might go into it. I think the comparison with Major though stacks up well precisely because he was (if anything) dawged with an even more viscreal Eurosceptic wing and still had Thatcher and her proxies haunting him. Major was to a large extent dealt a hand he had to play. Cameron has dealt his own. That alone puts Cameron out in the lead. History could really be brutal on Cameron, and especially if it transpires he's set in train a chain of events that breaks up the United Kingdom. The big issue with Cameron is that he didn't have to do any of this. He chose to. Now that's borderline unforgiveable. It strikes at the very heart of things that all politicians claim to possess and pride themselves in; judgement

Even when he resigned and cited his great achievements after 6 years of government it looked limp. "More people in work than ever before" is a demographic trend and one which most PM's who follow him are going to be able to make as the population grows. It's also highly questionable just what some of these jobs are too. I mentioned it earlier, but politicians rarely deal in incomes. His other claims include reforms to welfare and education. All governments tweak these, and as we continue to slide down international league tables, the latter in particular doesn't appear to be working. He came out with guff about "building a bigger and stronger society". The 'big society' was of course his great philosophical contribution back in 2010. Anyone remember that? It never happened. And as we stare at the possibility of a break up of the UK, I'm not even sure how he dare claim it anyway. He did say "keeping our promises to the poorest people in the world" which I'd say was a fair call, and then finally fell back on gay marriage (which he only succeeded in bringing into law because the opposition parties supported him)

I note there was no mention of international affairs and foreign policy. Obama is of course going through his own legacy management exercise at the moment and actually cited Libya as his single biggest regret, a policy with Cameron's fingerprints all over it. Indeed, Obama went further and name checked Cameron as being responsible, suggesting that "he lost focus"

Threasa May's speech about why she should be PM was even more damning incidentally, and easily picked apart. She claimed to have stood up to police corruption citing the Lawrence Enquiry and Hillsborough amongst her achievements. Last time I checked, both enquiries were commissioned by the Labour government, all she's saying is she didn't cancel them, or white wash them. Is this really such a great accomplishment? She said she stood up to the American's over Gary McKinnon's deportation. My recollection was that the Daily Mail stood up to Theresa May. She explained that she oversaw the extradition of Abu Qatada and even went to Jordan! I've been to Jordan as well, but it doesn't qualify me to be PM. And lets be honest, she cocked up the extradition when she didn't realise that a deadline for appeal lapses a minute past 23.59 on the day concerned (basic stuff). Not for the first time, she blamed her civil servants. She did the same with Brodie Clark as I recall over the Heathrow waive through after she'd cut the immigration officers (Clark won his appeal for constructive dismissal at Tribunal). Blaming others is a feature of Threasa May

The full impacts of Cameron's premiership are yet to be felt, so we could spare him a stay of execution for now, but it could easily go down as the worst in living memory. I wouldn't actually be shocked to see some diplomatic chicanery in the fullness of time and the referendum being reversed, or a 'confirmation' vote held. One suspects that the American's will take a hand eventually, albeit that depends on a Clinton white house
 
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clivex said:
Aren't you reading the posts at all? I was referring to his pretty disgusting behaviour during and after the abuse meeted out to a Jewish female mo who was clearly very upset. This must surely have seriously driven away any last remnants of support aside from his bigoted clique

his is clear baiting parallels between Isis and Israel were not unexpected. Nothing more to say about that

Aside from that, the subplot where he is simply refusing to go, with his "glorious leader" membership backing him, is critical
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I wasn't necessarily referring to your posts alone.

The irony of a Jewish MP being compelled to leave a Labour session designed to show they are not anti-Semitic, isn't lost on me.

Insofar as Corbyn is concerned, he is the worst kind of political-intellectual to have leading a major Party, because he cares much more about his personal 'integrity', than he does about winning elections. Personal integrity is fine for a shouty Backbencher, but it is utterly useless when it comes to the Party Leader, because that role is about two things; finding compromises and winning elections.

Corbyn does neither, and he is marching the Labour Party towards oblivion....though we should acknowledge that this process actually started under Blair. It was his betrayal of Labour's true values, that started the erosion, and led to the circumstances in which Corbyn could rise to the top.
 
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Golden opportunity for labour the grey and sour faced Theresa may and leadson the fluffy WI woman who should be preaching cake recipes get Dan the man in and get rid of Corbyn as soon as!!!
 
Grasshopper said:
though we should acknowledge that this process actually started under Blair
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I disagree with this. John Smith and then Tony Blair made Labour electable on a national level - precisely the qualities which you espouse earlier in the thread as being required of a leader. Without Blair et al, we'd be in our 37th year of conservative leadership.

Is Corbyn marching Labour towards oblivion - probably no more than the Tories were marching towards oblivion when Blair was at his peak and it appeared that they would potentially never recover. Should he go - yes, I think he should.

As for Icebreaker's comments about terrorists - I'm all for killing terrorists. I'm also all for not deliberately doing stuff that causes terrorism, as Israel does on a regular basis - read the wikipedia thread I posted earlier for a more balanced view of the situation in the region. To make a comparison - if Britain hadn't altered conditions in which Catholics were living in Northern Ireland do we think that a peace agreement could have been reached there? Which is precisely what Corbyn was saying about Israel/ISIS and also what he is saying when he says we should be opening dialogue with ISIS.

Indicating that you don't agree with the policies of Israel is no more anti-semitic than saying that you don't agree with the policies of Saudi Arabia. It is intellectually bereft to suggest otherwise.
 
John Smith would have been turning in his grave at half the things Blair did as Prime Minister. Lets not kid ourselves on that they were cut from the same political-cloth.

As far as 'leadership' goes, getting elected is one of the desirable attributes - no dispute there - and if Blair had been smart enough to have swerved the Iraq War, his legacy would probably be very different.

However, that is merely one example of a policy-stance that was at odds with Labour's core vote. To the Iraq War, you can add cosying-up to Big Business/the City, the acceptance that Thatcher wasn't all bad, ditching Clause 4, aligning with a neo-Con White House, and flipping ten-bob in the direction of pensioners, for evidence of how Labour's core vote started to dissipate.

In my view, all of the above contributed to Labour's current malaise, because it led to Brown's defeat, the selection of the insipid Milliband, and the current desperate lurch to the left, in a bid to appeal to a constituency that went underground in the mid-80's, in the mistaken belief that they still exist in sufficient numbers, to win an election.

Newsflash. They don't.

I've no comment on the rest of it.
 
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Grasshopper said:
To the Iraq War, you can add cosying-up to Big Business/the City, the acceptance that Thatcher wasn't all bad, ditching Clause 4, aligning with a neo-Con White House, and flipping ten-bob in the direction of pensioners, for evidence of how Labour's core vote started to dissipate.
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Their core Labour vote is roughly about what Ed Milliband reached at the last general election, 231 seats.
Off the top of my head I'm guessing this is what Gordon Brown achieved in 2010, probably other Labour leaders too. People shouldn't underestimate the fact that if you voted Labour in the 1980's to get rid of Thatcher, you've probably done so ever since out of loyalty, regardless of the Iraq War and other things you've mentioned.

The 1997 election, the 400+ seats... was unprecedented....

At this moment in time, (after 1997),- the issues Grasshopper mentions..... help to lose the winning vote, about 100-150 seats. (not necessarily the core vote).

There's a theory that Labours core vote went to UKIP last week because it was a UKIP issue, but it will come back to Labour again at an election. The problem is......at very best, this still gives Jeremy Corbyn...the same seat-share as other failed Labour leaders, i.e. the core vote, (about 250 seats).

He needs much more... like a 3 mile chaser, running at 2 miles in a novice hurdle. If everything falls in his favour, which it may not........... he still needs more...David Milliband in his cabinet, might help, but its unlikely.


Ps, checking results on the internet shows that since the 1974 election, the only leader to get in the magic 300's was Tony Blair. He has received way too much stick for a lot of things imho.
Everyone in parliament at that time is to blame for the Iraq war apart from Charles Kennedy and those that took a stand.
 
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Don't think voters are anywhere near as tribal as they used to be,i was when I was 18-30 as I've got older not voting or criticizing labour seems easy to do nowadays I live in a conservative constituency but has been labour twice a lot of my friends are conservative but would be flexible with a decent labour party.It would only take someone moderate like Dan Jarvis to be running the party and he would pull in voters from all classes and areas,only negative for him is if he wants it enough!!
 
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