Colin Phillips
At the Start
Shads, you're beginning to repeat yourself.........................you're too young for that!! 
Cartoons Of The Prophet Muhammad
- Thread starter sunybay
- Start date
A
Ardross
Guest
PDJ tell that to the Jews who unlike Krizon's friends are Jewish by descent , acknowledge that descent but do not believe . And moreover to the Jews whose relatives died in Auschwitz , because they were of the Jewish race not religion .
You may not be convinced but it is fact and recognised by law .
Furthermore , you can be Jewish , non-believing and Anti Zionist .
I can't believe that such intelligent people can't see how offensive it is to tell a Jewish person that unless they believe they are not Jewish.
You may not be convinced but it is fact and recognised by law .
Furthermore , you can be Jewish , non-believing and Anti Zionist .
I can't believe that such intelligent people can't see how offensive it is to tell a Jewish person that unless they believe they are not Jewish.
Shadow Leader
At the Start
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- Nov 9, 2003
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- 9,884
That's because people keep questioning it, Colin!!!
Seriously, get it or not (I'm not sure there is something to 'get' though!) Jews are a race as well as a religion. It was hammered into me at school in RE lessons & I was examined on that fact!!
We'll start debating the physical manisfestations of carbon next, and how on earth can it manage to manifest itself as two such different entities as graphite & carbon although it's manufactured from identical components!!!! :lol:
Seriously, get it or not (I'm not sure there is something to 'get' though!) Jews are a race as well as a religion. It was hammered into me at school in RE lessons & I was examined on that fact!!
We'll start debating the physical manisfestations of carbon next, and how on earth can it manage to manifest itself as two such different entities as graphite & carbon although it's manufactured from identical components!!!! :lol:
h34r:
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
I don't view religion like that!! I am sorry, Jon............everyman/women to his/her own views, me being Welsh don't make me a sheep!!! Does it? I can be an individual with my own views/thoughts surely????? as long as I abide by the laws of the land.....
Why should we in our own country have to put up with what you and I seen these Muslim FANATICS performing here yesterday!!
Boasting about the bomb atrocities!!! That was carried out by supposedly Muslim people in London last year…..
I would round them ALL up and send them ALL home!!!! on the first ship, we cant be getting this soft surely, to bow to these fanatics. Send them back from whence they came or their forefathers came, when they migrated to these shores....
If you or I did that in LONDON yesterday or any day of the week? we would be arrested for trying to stir up religious or racist HATRED and locked up for a very long time.............
You just imagine if you did it in PALESTINE!!! you would end up being strung up, or decapitated!! come on lets get back to basic values in our own country if people want to migrate here they must come here on our terms(the terms we all have to live under) and the laws of the land adhered to as well, not to do what these people did yesterday, they are pi$$ taking obviously.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I am lapsed - i think the Arabs, a swastika and Holocaust denial merchants are the only three things that bring out the Jew in me. Despite not really being that bothered about my religion....i reserve the right to get upset with Nazis who tried to wipe us out...and Arabs who would like to attempt the same thing.
No, Merlin that is incorrect. We live in a country where freedom of expression is acceptable. Why should foreigners come here on "our terms" as you put it? This country has many influences from many different ethnic groups, from restaurants upwards. Should we send them all back and go back to the little Englander mentality? Preposterous.
Merlin - you've entirely missed the point. I'm asking you, as you said you don't believe in CENSORSHIP (nothing to do with religion, foreigners, immigrants, whatever), if the phrase I used would be okay with YOU? If you believe in COMPLETE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, we wouldn't have any rules on this site about personal/religious/ethnic abuse, would we? I could call you a dim-witted arse, and that would be my right to the freedom of expression you SAY we should enjoy. You couldn't argue against my right to speak to you in that way, IF there was real, total, complete 'freedom of expression'. You could, of course, get a bit angry and decide you wanted to give me a good kicking. That is, at its most simplistic, what the enraged Muslims want to do to the Danish people who insulted their holy prophet. So, sure, go ahead and express all you want: if someone shoots you for doing so, that's the price you pay for making a conscious decision to insult someone!
2000 BC: Jewish patriarch Abraham leaves Ur, Mesopotamia (mostly now Iraq) for Canaan - the 'promised land'.
1250 BC: After persecution in Egypt, the Israelites begin the Exodus, eventually reaching the land of Canaan. (They're not making terribly good speed, are they?)
1230 BC: Moses receives the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai
1020 BC: After rule of 'Judges' elected from the 12 tribes of Israel, Saul becomes king of the Israelites
900-800 BC: First Jewish prophets in Palestine; Elijah combats worship of fertility god, Baal.
800-700 BC: Prophets Amos, Hosea and Isaiah combat abuses in Israel; Isaiah prophesies Messiah
Zionism: A SECULAR (Ardross, you'll explain that bit) political movement dedicated to establishing a national homeland in PALESTINE for the JEWS. I've highlighted that from the other sects/groups of Pharisees, Essenes, Sephardics, Ashkenazics, Hasidics, Judaist Reformists and Conservative Judaists as it highlights 'secular'.
(Ref: Larousse)
2000 BC: Jewish patriarch Abraham leaves Ur, Mesopotamia (mostly now Iraq) for Canaan - the 'promised land'.
1250 BC: After persecution in Egypt, the Israelites begin the Exodus, eventually reaching the land of Canaan. (They're not making terribly good speed, are they?)
1230 BC: Moses receives the Ten Commandments on Mt. Sinai
1020 BC: After rule of 'Judges' elected from the 12 tribes of Israel, Saul becomes king of the Israelites
900-800 BC: First Jewish prophets in Palestine; Elijah combats worship of fertility god, Baal.
800-700 BC: Prophets Amos, Hosea and Isaiah combat abuses in Israel; Isaiah prophesies Messiah
Zionism: A SECULAR (Ardross, you'll explain that bit) political movement dedicated to establishing a national homeland in PALESTINE for the JEWS. I've highlighted that from the other sects/groups of Pharisees, Essenes, Sephardics, Ashkenazics, Hasidics, Judaist Reformists and Conservative Judaists as it highlights 'secular'.
(Ref: Larousse)
A
Ardross
Guest
Hysterically funny :blink:
Euro - I'm baptised, but as I haven't practised my Christianity since trying to take myself to Sunday School, I'm more than lapsed - I'm extinct! Of course I wasn't trying to be offensive in any way - I'd have thought that Ardross would've known better than that, considering the type of posting I've put up for many years.
It's a tragedy that the swastika was hijacked by the truly, unforgiveably evil Nazis, and it's appalling that there has been almost no let-up in the atrocities perpetuated on the Jewish peoples, century after century - the last century by far the worst of the worst, and this new one being no exception. I have been enlightened to the historic sufferings, since, as I said before, I was in ignorance of them - most likely due to the Christian overtones of the schools I attended.
Ardross is well aware of my feelings on this, since he read my posts on the subject following my watching of 'Secrets of the Inquisition', where the Catholic Church practised religious intolerance on an appalling scale, aiming in the main at constantly-scattered, disenfranchised Jewish societies.
I can't disagree with you on any of the points you make, and I've already made my feelings clear about the rabid Muslim placard-wavers. However, for the European Press to have, apparently, re-published what were grossly offensive depictions of their prophet - when it seems that the original furore had been largely iced - is a dangerous, gratuitous insult in what are already dangerous times.
It's a tragedy that the swastika was hijacked by the truly, unforgiveably evil Nazis, and it's appalling that there has been almost no let-up in the atrocities perpetuated on the Jewish peoples, century after century - the last century by far the worst of the worst, and this new one being no exception. I have been enlightened to the historic sufferings, since, as I said before, I was in ignorance of them - most likely due to the Christian overtones of the schools I attended.
Ardross is well aware of my feelings on this, since he read my posts on the subject following my watching of 'Secrets of the Inquisition', where the Catholic Church practised religious intolerance on an appalling scale, aiming in the main at constantly-scattered, disenfranchised Jewish societies.
I can't disagree with you on any of the points you make, and I've already made my feelings clear about the rabid Muslim placard-wavers. However, for the European Press to have, apparently, re-published what were grossly offensive depictions of their prophet - when it seems that the original furore had been largely iced - is a dangerous, gratuitous insult in what are already dangerous times.
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
I can see where Euro is coming from, actually. I'm a non-practising, christened Roman Catholic. Although I am not particularly religious I find myself having a lot of sympathies with Catholicism; I want to get married in a Catholic ceremony & I do get a little sensitive occasionally over a lot of criticism of the Catholic church. I can't explain it really, but ot has some kind of hold over me & when I attend a Catholic church service I almost feel that I could attend regularly 
A
Ardross
Guest
I didn't suggest for a moment that you were trying to be offensive just that what you had posted was offensive.
In the light of your last posting as far as I am concerned this discussion on whether someone is Jewish or not is closed .
In the light of your last posting as far as I am concerned this discussion on whether someone is Jewish or not is closed .
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
PEE I thought someone would respond like you has? Go back and read it again it states that ALL these people who broke the law yesterday should be sent home....Do you know of any that were arrested for using this sort of proclamation with regards bomb atrocities? you just imagine if you were a father or brother of someone who was maimed or even killed in those bomb outrages on the underground, I bet they were in tears to see this pi$$ taking fanatics yesterday
I stand by my statement.............. meaning as I have hopefully explained, its nothing to do with other races or people its aimed at people like I have spoken about.........these fanatics who carry PIZZ taking banners nothing else........
Again I ask why should these people be making an issue that has nothing to do with this country, can't you see what I am trying to point out? its these fanatical muslims.....
Not forgetting that very old adage as in ROME do as the ROMANS do..............
Shadz - there's a history - certainly some 600 years of inglorious behaviour - to be acknowledged and accepted. It's there, it's on record, and it should be looked at in the same way that we view the Nazis, the behaviour of the Japanese during the last World War, the Hutu vs the Tutsis and then the Tutsis vs the Hutu - whether it's religious intolerance or ethnic strife, it just is what it is. No good papering over the cracks, no good not understanding that for millions of people, 'they' - whoever they are - will always induce some sort of loathing.
On a personal, spiritual level, it's probably a different matter. If you accept that Catholicism has been fallible and not the representation of God on Earth that it should have been (although it thought it was doing right at the time) and you still think it's the faith you're most drawn to, then why not?
On a personal, spiritual level, it's probably a different matter. If you accept that Catholicism has been fallible and not the representation of God on Earth that it should have been (although it thought it was doing right at the time) and you still think it's the faith you're most drawn to, then why not?
Shadow Leader
At the Start
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- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
Goodie - not only will they bring the death penalty back then, but it will be public crucifixion!!! :lol:
(EDIT - that was a joke in response to 'When in Rome....')
(EDIT - that was a joke in response to 'When in Rome....')
A
Ardross
Guest
Printable version
Muslim leader condemns protesters
Protesters waved placards outside London embassies on Friday
A march in which protesters chanted violent anti-Western slogans such as "7/7 is on its way" should have been banned, a leading British Muslim said.
Asghar Bukhari said the demonstration in London on Friday should have been stopped by police because the group had been advocating violence.
The chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".
More protests over cartoons of Muhammad on Saturday passed off peacefully.
Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.
It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible
Asghar Bukhari
BBC TV interview
"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."
He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence.
"We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped.
"It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."
Police estimated Friday's crowd at between 500 and 700 and no arrests were made.
Protestors voiced their anger over the cartoons at the Danish embassy
On Saturday more protesters, organised by the Hizb ut-Tahrir group, gathering outside the Danish embassy in London.
It appeared that the rally was far more restrained than the one on Friday.
Police later said two men had been arrested near the embassy during the protest.
"They were arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, after a search by officers found leaflets including cartoons of the prophet Mohammed," a Met spokeswoman said.
The UN's Kofi Annan has urged Muslims to accept the apology from the paper where the cartoons first appeared.
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has praised UK media for not publishing them.
Mr Straw said the decision by some European newspapers to print the cartoons was "disrespectful" and he added that freedom of speech did not mean an "open season" on religious taboos.
By publishing these cartoons, we are saying to the Muslim community in Denmark 'we treat you as we treat everybody else'
Fleming Rose, Jyllands-Posten
Q&A: Hizb ut-Tahrir
Flanked by a forest of messages such as, "'Freedom' to insult", a speaker at Saturday's rally told the crowd they were demanding an end to "vilification".
"If you want to debate and criticise then we are ready and we have been waiting, but we are not going to accept these images," he said.
He called on "the governments of the Muslim world to completely sever all contact with European governments" until they had "controlled the media".
Among the images which have sparked outcry is one of Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban on his head. Newspapers in Spain, Italy, Germany and France reprinted the material.
They have sparked protests across the Middle East.
We have to be very careful about showing the proper respect in this situation
Jack Straw
Send us your comments
Restrained anger at mosque
UK Muslims have denied that the reaction to the cartoons' reproduction has been a threat to freedom of speech.
Inayat Bunglawala, from the Muslim Council of Britain, told the BBC that any kind of cartoon that was derogatory to a race or group in a stereotypical way was "unacceptable".
"Of course Europe has the right to freedom of speech, and of course newspapers have the right to publish offensive cartoons. This was really a question about exercising good judgment," he said.
"Knowing full well the nature of these cartoons, they were offensive, deeply offensive to millions of Muslims, these newspaper editors should have exercised better judgment.
Muslim leader condemns protesters
Protesters waved placards outside London embassies on Friday
A march in which protesters chanted violent anti-Western slogans such as "7/7 is on its way" should have been banned, a leading British Muslim said.
Asghar Bukhari said the demonstration in London on Friday should have been stopped by police because the group had been advocating violence.
The chairman of the Muslim Public Affairs Committee said the protesters "did not represent British Muslims".
More protests over cartoons of Muhammad on Saturday passed off peacefully.
Mr Bukhari told the BBC News website: "The placards and chants were disgraceful and disgusting, Muslims do not feel that way.
It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible
Asghar Bukhari
BBC TV interview
"I condemn them without reservation, these people are less representative of Muslims than the BNP are of the British people."
He said that Muslims were angry over satirical cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in European papers but it was "outrageous" for anyone to advocate extreme action or violence.
"We believe it [the protest] should have been banned and the march stopped.
"It's irrelevant whether it's Muslims causing hatred or anyone else - freedom of speech has to be responsible."
Police estimated Friday's crowd at between 500 and 700 and no arrests were made.
Protestors voiced their anger over the cartoons at the Danish embassy
On Saturday more protesters, organised by the Hizb ut-Tahrir group, gathering outside the Danish embassy in London.
It appeared that the rally was far more restrained than the one on Friday.
Police later said two men had been arrested near the embassy during the protest.
"They were arrested to prevent a breach of the peace, after a search by officers found leaflets including cartoons of the prophet Mohammed," a Met spokeswoman said.
The UN's Kofi Annan has urged Muslims to accept the apology from the paper where the cartoons first appeared.
Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has praised UK media for not publishing them.
Mr Straw said the decision by some European newspapers to print the cartoons was "disrespectful" and he added that freedom of speech did not mean an "open season" on religious taboos.
By publishing these cartoons, we are saying to the Muslim community in Denmark 'we treat you as we treat everybody else'
Fleming Rose, Jyllands-Posten
Q&A: Hizb ut-Tahrir
Flanked by a forest of messages such as, "'Freedom' to insult", a speaker at Saturday's rally told the crowd they were demanding an end to "vilification".
"If you want to debate and criticise then we are ready and we have been waiting, but we are not going to accept these images," he said.
He called on "the governments of the Muslim world to completely sever all contact with European governments" until they had "controlled the media".
Among the images which have sparked outcry is one of Muhammad with a bomb-shaped turban on his head. Newspapers in Spain, Italy, Germany and France reprinted the material.
They have sparked protests across the Middle East.
We have to be very careful about showing the proper respect in this situation
Jack Straw
Send us your comments
Restrained anger at mosque
UK Muslims have denied that the reaction to the cartoons' reproduction has been a threat to freedom of speech.
Inayat Bunglawala, from the Muslim Council of Britain, told the BBC that any kind of cartoon that was derogatory to a race or group in a stereotypical way was "unacceptable".
"Of course Europe has the right to freedom of speech, and of course newspapers have the right to publish offensive cartoons. This was really a question about exercising good judgment," he said.
"Knowing full well the nature of these cartoons, they were offensive, deeply offensive to millions of Muslims, these newspaper editors should have exercised better judgment.
What more could a radiant bride want?
Shadow Leader
At the Start
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2003
- Messages
- 9,884
Oh, I know the Catholic Church has carried out some horrific acts & I don't sympathise with those at all, Kri. What I meant is that I feel some sympathy towards the Catholic Church, paticularly when it is often vilified, which it is for all sorts of reasons!!
I guess what I probably mean is that if I were to be religious, I would practice Catholicism rather than anything else - does that make sense? I certainly find myself leaning more towards the traditions of Catholicism than Protestantism when it comes to church services & the likes.
I guess what I probably mean is that if I were to be religious, I would practice Catholicism rather than anything else - does that make sense? I certainly find myself leaning more towards the traditions of Catholicism than Protestantism when it comes to church services & the likes.
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
:lol: may be a bit better than we have now S/L regards the judiciary ???
A
Ardross
Guest
Perhaps we can have
Your hero on the bench
Your hero on the bench
Merlin the Magician
At the Start
:lol: :lol: Couldn't do much worse than the current lot :lol: :lol:
A
Ardross
Guest
Merlin
Alf sits in at least nine courts I have attended !
Alf sits in at least nine courts I have attended !
Honest Tom
At the Start
- Joined
- May 2, 2003
- Messages
- 1,272
Good to hear you're a wee fenian bitch Dom. Maybe me and you could take in a Celtic game sometime, preferrably against the orange filth. On the way back we'd maybe even get to stab simmo.Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Feb 4 2006, 10:37 PM
Oh, I know the Catholic Church has carried out some horrific acts & I don't sympathise with those at all, Kri. What I meant is that I feel some sympathy towards the Catholic Church, paticularly when it is often vilified, which it is for all sorts of reasons!!
I guess what I probably mean is that if I were to be religious, I would practice Catholicism rather than anything else - does that make sense? I certainly find myself leaning more towards the traditions of Catholicism than Protestantism when it comes to church services & the likes.
