Champion Hurdle 2014

simmo said:
Quite right 5 2m Gd1 in Ireland and 3 2m Gd1 in the UK
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Britain has seven open Grade 1s. These are the Fighting Fifth (2m), Long Walk (3m1f), Christmas (2m), Champion (2m), World (3m), Liverpool (3m) and Aintree (2m4f). Three of these are over 2m, three are at 3m and one, the Aintree Hurdles is at an intermediate distance of 2m4f. However, it is run at the same meeting as one of the stayers hurdles.

Ireland has six open Grade 1s, the Morgiana (2m), Hattons Grace (2m4f), December (2m), Irish Champion (2m), Punchestown Champion (2m) and World Series (3m). Four of these are over 2m, one at 2m4f and one at 3m.

Ireland has four 2m hurdles, Britain has three. There must be a plan to get the Bula/International upgraded and the Aintree Hurdle could be a candidate for a drop in trip.
 
You know I think I've assumed the Hattons Grace was at 2m.

And in any case - the numbers still don't stack up as far as suggesting the Irish races are competitive.
 
simmo said:
You know I think I've assumed the Hattons Grace was at 2m.

And in any case - the numbers still don't stack up as far as suggesting the Irish races are competitive.
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When Istabraq was in his prime, were the top 2m hurdles uncompetitive?

Or was it simply the case that he was vastly superior to most of his contemporaries?
 
i think it all depends on where the best hurdlers are at the time..as to which races are more competitive re Ireland or the mainland

even then..i just feel most hurdle races are not competitive in the way i was brought up to expect in the 70's..sorry to go back to that time but my expectations tend to always go back to then.

it seems to me that the modern way is to compete to a high level with a horse..until he gets to his summit...then dodge every other top horse until Cheltenham

so you actually get the best races when horses are novices.. future big names facing each other until their full ability is clear

egg and spooners are all over the place..due to the nature of the modern game imo

i can't remember off the top of my head..but i would love to know how many times Night Nurse, Sea Pigeon & Birds Nest actually competed in the same races..it seems so many now..but memory plays tricks..it seemed like most weeks
 
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simmo said:
I'll get to the point - there are 5 in Ireland and 3 in Britain.

The last 4 Champion Hurdles combined have seen around 29 runners from the UK and 16 from Ireland.

Which tells me 2 things.

People who say that Irish Grade 1 hurdles are uncompetitive are probably right.
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I don't get your point at all. Let's say 32 UK runners had run and 16 irish. By your thinking that would make British races twice as competitive?
 
granger said:
I don't get your point at all. Let's say 32 UK runners had run and 16 irish. By your thinking that would make British races twice as competitive?
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only if they actually met in races away from Cheltenham..which they don't that often

i think if we had 5 decent hurdlers here...and 5 decent ones in Ireland..i'll bet most races would be of similar competitiveness...which as said..wouldn't be that much due to the dodging factor
 
There's more crossover in the Spring.

Ignoring Cheltenham for a moment, the Irish generally always send good hurdlers over to compete in the Aintree Hurdle, with Solwhit, Al Elie and Thousand Stars (to name three off the top of my head), all running with great merit in the race.

Similarly, there is usually a top-class UK-trained runner in the Punchestown Champion Hurdle, though they've had perhaps less success with their raiding parties over, say, the last 10 years.

What does this tell us?

In the words of Bar The Bull: fu*ck knows.
 
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clivex said:
Surely we should have one grade one 2m 4f though?
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Of course, but why not have it on a date when neither 2m nor 3m hurdlers have alternative attractions?


And in any case - the numbers still don't stack up as far as suggesting the Irish races are competitive.
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In the last 15 years there have been 9 Irish-trained winners of the Champion Hurdle, 5 seconds and 3 thirds. Britain stables had 6 winners, 9 seconds and 11 thirds.
 
Agree entirely ec.. Good posts

Yes grey. But when? Maybe the Xmas hurdle could be the effective championship . Don't know really
 
To be honest, though, I'm not sure what story they tell. To quote Grasshopper quoting Bar The Bull, "f*ck knows".

When you consider the stats about Fighting Fifth and Christmas Hurdle winners never winning the Champion Hurdle, you could say there's an insufficient programme for Grade 1 2m hurdlers in Britain.

But EC1 makes some good points about the best horses only meeting at Cheltenham nowadays.
 
granger said:
I don't get your point at all. Let's say 32 UK runners had run and 16 irish. By your thinking that would make British races twice as competitive?
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Nope.

A couple of assumptions are in play. First - that the best horses from all areas generally turn up at Cheltenham and therefore the 32/16 or whatever it was represents the complete body of good horses (I know there are a few flaws with that theory, but it holds a fair bit of water).

If we are then saying that outside Cheltenham, 1/3 of the best horses have 2/3 of the opportunities to win Grade 1 races, then the chances are that those races are not going to be as competitive as the other races.

Do bear in mind that I then went on to suggest that British trainers should be targeting those races in order to cash in - but apparently the prize money for an Irish Gd1 is worth about as much as coming 2nd in a UK Grade 2, so it's hardly any wonder they are uncompetitive.
 
Grey said:
In the last 15 years there have been 9 Irish-trained winners of the Champion Hurdle, 5 seconds and 3 thirds. Britain stables had 6 winners, 9 seconds and 11 thirds.
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Which has precisely zero relevance - we're not talking about how the Irish fared versus the British in the Champion Hurdle.

Although it does generally prove that the quality is fairly evenly spread amongst UK and Ireland.
 
Grasshopper said:
There's more crossover in the Spring.

Ignoring Cheltenham for a moment, the Irish generally always send good hurdlers over to compete in the Aintree Hurdle, with Solwhit, Al Elie and Thousand Stars (to name three off the top of my head), all running with great merit in the race.

Similarly, there is usually a top-class UK-trained runner in the Punchestown Champion Hurdle, though they've had perhaps less success with their raiding parties over, say, the last 10 years.

What does this tell us?

In the words of Bar The Bull: fu*ck knows.
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It confirms what we already knew; that trainers are more likely to chance their arm after the big game is over, and the whole NH season is geared toward one week in March.
Memory fades, but I don't recall that being nearly the case in Sea Pigeon's day?
 
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simmo said:
Nope.

A couple of assumptions are in play. First - that the best horses from all areas generally turn up at Cheltenham and therefore the 32/16 or whatever it was represents the complete body of good horses (I know there are a few flaws with that theory, but it holds a fair bit of water).

If we are then saying that outside Cheltenham, 1/3 of the best horses have 2/3 of the opportunities to win Grade 1 races, then the chances are that those races are not going to be as competitive as the other races.

Do bear in mind that I then went on to suggest that British trainers should be targeting those races in order to cash in - but apparently the prize money for an Irish Gd1 is worth about as much as coming 2nd in a UK Grade 2, so it's hardly any wonder they are uncompetitive.
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It costs plenty to send horses to run in England, so you'd expect fewer Irish no-hopers. A fair comparison would exclude the rags.

You also need to say what you mean by 'competitive'. A bookie would say it means having lots of runners and fields big enough for each way betting. By that definition Irish Grade 1 hurdles are often uncompetitive. If on the other hand the ratings of the horses who win and get placed in them is the criterion, there is nothing inferior about them, especially when compared to the Fighting Fifth and Christmas Hurdles.
 
Grey said:
You also need to say what you mean by 'competitive'. A bookie would say it means having lots of runners and fields big enough for each way betting. By that definition Irish Grade 1 hurdles are often uncompetitive. If on the other hand the ratings of the horses who win and get placed in them is the criterion, there is nothing inferior about them, especially when compared to the Fighting Fifth and Christmas Hurdles.
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Well I wouldn't say that uncompetitive means inferior, I would say it means uncompetitive. I would take that to mean that competition existed which meant that the race did not seem a foregone conclusion before it was run.

From the point of view of seeing top hurdlers take each other on - the UK hurdles are no more competitive.
 
reet hard said:
It confirms what we already knew; that trainers are more likely to chance their arm after the big game is over, and the whole NH season is geared toward one week in March.
Memory fades, but I don't recall that being nearly the case in Sea Pigeon's day?
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In Sea Pigeon's day races were not graded officially as such.
Sea Pigeon himself especially in later years did not run from Fighting Fifth to Champion Hurdle so there is nothing new there.
His summer flat campaign were full throttle of course from Chester to Doonside Cups via Ebor, winning as many flat races as hurdle races.
With less "big " races then horses were more prone to meet more often through the season but Cheltenham was as big for those directly involved then as now imo.
Spring horses like Monksfield ran at Cheltenham, Aintree , Chepstow Welsh Champ Hurdle and Royal Doulton at Haydock May Bank Holiday Having run unplaced/placed in Ireland all winter.
 
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