Champion Hurdle 2015

NTD has said TNO will take similar path. After his Kempton run in October, he said hopefully he'll be back here at Xmas.

If they all stood there ground, it would be an interesting race. I think Irving probably has more pace than either Faugheen or TNO, and if TNO and Faugheen were messing about watching the other then Irving may just well out sprint them. However if they start racing a way out then I would expect Irving to maybe duck the issue.

I thought Tent would win this a bit more comfy last year than he did. Barring the mistake from TNO he may well not have. Clearly the ground had a big part to play. At Cheltenham on better ground TNO didn't have the boot. Granted a genuine soft ground Champion then I can see TNO and Faugheen being big players. If not then they are mopping up Jezki's drips imo. Of course that could all change if Faugheen spits them out.

the crucial bit you mention....if they start racing some way out...this rarely happens in the Xmas hurdle..usually a small field cat + mouse affair isn't it

if TNO were mine..and i ran him in it..i'd be making it a true test..might run em into ground...but they don't seem to want to use that tactic. The only problem with that tactic is..it seems very hard to pull off on the flat Kempton track.

Rooster Booster who was probably a similar type to TNO..he only won a CH because the race was run at a ridiculous early tempo and all the speed horses were worn out 2 out..and he just plodded through. He set a really strong pace in the Xmas hurdle..went 25 clear?..correct tactics for a styer type 2 miler?...and Harchibald still beat him....Kempton is a very hard course for a stamina horse to beat a speedy one..even when race is run to suit the stayer.
 
I don't think anyone has ever "ridiculed" you, EC1, have they?

BTW, I've backed Hurricane Fly every year since you mentioned this stat, so I'm not culpable! :D


ridiculed a strong word probably..but there are logical reasons why winning the FF or Xmas races aren't exactly great guides to Cheltenham

lets see what happens at kempton..maybe only two decent staying hosses will turn up..then stat might be broken..but it will only be broken by default
 
EC1......Rooster Booster had to be held-up in every race........the last thing he wanted was to be out in front.

I've heard this "collapsing pace" argument before, and it doesn't wash with me. He did the exact same thing in a County Hurdle, and at least two Tote Gold Trophies, and they can't all have been won due to "pace collapse".

The simple fact is that the Booster was a top, top-class Champion Hurdle winner, and certainly the best post-Istabraq, until Hurricane Fly emerged.

"Plodded through" my hole!! :D
 
Whilst I still think Faugheen remains a touch unproven as a top-class 2-miler, I think it's unwise to write him off as a "3-miler". Not that I subscribe to it myself, but his Punchestown form can be viewed in an extremely positive-light (if you choose to place a particular gloss on it, as Timeform did in C&H), and at the very-least, he appears to be extremely versatile in terms of trip.....at this stage in his career, at any rate.

The Champion Hurdle is a proper test, and you want a horse that is going to get up the hill - in that regard, Faugheen seems an ideal type to me. Given he's also proven on the track, he will - assuming all goes to plan - contest the next Champion Hurdle with fewer questions marks against him than Hurricane Fly did in 2011. The challenge from the UK looks somewhat anaemic, with The New One about the only horse with genuine pretensions to getting involved in the finish - and even then, you need to ignore practically all of the stats, concerns about his jumping, and also his ability to quicken off a strong-pace.

The latter two aspects are essentially the main worries about Faugheen too. I think there is a danger that - a little like his stable-companion Un De Sceaux - he might be a bit one-dimensional, in terms of 2m hurdles. I think he probably only has one way of running at there trip i.e. gallop them into the ground, and whilst that can work well against inferior opposition, he'll face a much sterner examination against Jezki and to a lesser extent Hurricane Fly (who may no longer cart as much speed as he once did). I think Kempton is a fishing-trip, to see where they are with Faugheen, relative to TNO......and whether they need to think about a change of tactics in the main event.

I was having a laugh a bit about 3m. There is absolutely nothing negative about his punchestown form and for the CH i like a horse that gets a bit more than the 2m

If he does race against TNO it will be interesting to see whether they cut each other up a bit.
 
Yes they should be making it a real test with the TNO. Faugheen probably similar over this trip if he is going to beat a speed horse.
Last year if memory serves TNO took it up some way out. Tent being Tent didn't find much, but the ground was testing that day.
Irving is that speed horse who if steps up to the plate 'could' take it. However at this stage I'm not sure how much grit Irving has.

I agree regards the Champion. They need to throw in a pacemaker if they can find one and make it hard from the off and hope they fall in a hole. Willie could throw a hare in if need be. Kempton will tell us if he needs to.
 
EC1......Rooster Booster had to be held-up in every race........the last thing he wanted was to be out in front.

I've heard this "collapsing pace" argument before, and it doesn't wash with me. He did the exact same thing in a County Hurdle, and at least two Tote Gold Trophies, and they can't all have been won due to "pace collapse".

The simple fact is that the Booster was a top, top-class Champion Hurdle winner, and certainly the best post-Istabraq, until Hurricane Fly emerged.

"Plodded through" my hole!! :D

no horse "has to be held up"..thats a fallacy

if he had been held up in that Xmas hurdle he would have lost by further,,they used the right tactics..still didn't work

of course he plodded through to win at CH..have you seen how fast they went early in that race?..it was a destroying pace set by intersky falcon...i know how fast they went early..the actual time..not some guess from watching...there is no way that anything but a plodder would have won that CH..even Celestial Halo would have won that race.:)
 
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Similar to Saturdays gold cup, the International Hurdle should be attracting a better field. I haven't seen the entries but none of the big guns will be taking it in. The changing face of jump racing
 
The field would never have been able to go off fast enough, to allow a "plodder" to win the race by 11L. If your analysis is telling you that, then your analysis is wrong. Exactly how suicidal could the pace have been anyway, when four of the first seven home raced either prominently or in midfield, and some who were held-up - including the 158-rated Flame Creek - never managed to get into the race?

If there had been the type of pace-collapse you suggest, then horses like Rhinestone Cowboy and Westerner, should have been finishing a shi*tload closer to Rooster Booster than they did. The fact is that RB did exactly what he'd done twice previously that season - running to his best when held-up in a decent-size-field at Cheltenham.
 
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Ec if you font want to be critisized the pleasy dont say things like no horse needs to be held up....Can just see Simonsig being allowed his head in the King George...apat from Barry getting the biggest bollocking of his life they grey would burn himself out and stop to a walk before halfway. Re Rooster Booster he wouldnt be in the top 15 of ch winners but a v good but hardly one of the greats
 
lets put this Rooster Booster thing to bed Grass..read this even if bores pants off you and i'll try and show you why he won so easily

lets start with what you think was a race that was run evenly over the CH trip

Do you think Ruby rode near perfect pace when he won on Champagne Fever?
Do you think Ruby ran near perfect even pace when he won on Vautour?

the answer to both should be yes...i'll add another one where they went a pace that was near to even ..Hardy Eustace in 2004

so with those 3 races we know that they have run near on perfect evenly.

all times are from when they jump first hurdle..i'll split race into 3 slabs

1st to 3rd
3rd to 6th
6th to finish

to eliminate ground conditions each section is expressed as a % of energy used compared to overall time...a lower % means they are going faster than par

Champagne Fever = 38.4%....36.8%....24.7%
Vautour =...........38.7%......36.3%....24.8%
Hardy Eustace = .......38.9%...36.9%...24.8%

average for even pace = 38.7...36.7...24.8

Would you agree they are remarkably similar and represent a fair even pace..not favouring any type of horse?

Rooster Booster =...37.6%...36.3%...25.9%

in the first section ran 1% faster than ideal

1% is equal to 12 lengths

in the second section he ran 0.4% faster than ideal

0.4% is equal to 5 lengths

by the time they got to the 6th flight they had run the race 17 lengths faster than ideal pace.

that killed most of the field off..and Rooster came home 1.1% slower [13 lengths]than even pace..the others ran lots slower than that due to the early exertions
 
"to eliminate ground conditions each section is expressed as a % of energy used compared to overall time...a lower % means they are going faster than par".

OK.......I'm already tripping out my nut trying to read these numbers, so let me ask a couple of questions regarding the above:

Re your equation, I'm reading this as follows; If overall time is 100 seconds, each section should be run in 33.3 seconds, if each section is same distance. But that's clearly not the case based on %ages you've used above. Is it therefore based on the distance covered between each section? For example, if the sections are 4f, 3f and 3f exactly, would the '
target distribution' be 40%/30%/30%?

I'm guessing the above is only right to a degree, because the target pace-distribution for maximum energy output throughout the race, might mean they need to go faster at the end, or mid-race, or whatever such analysis deems to be the case on a per-track/per-Going assessment. So I'm assuming that pace is an input to this equation, and not just an output? And presumably those percentages are
the 'pars' you reference above i.e these figures 38.7...36.7...24.8?

This is rather a clumsy way of me asking whether your Pars are influenced by all of distance, ground and pace factors, based on previous races?


I readily concede that this could be down to me missing some crucial-yet-simple factor, that is hidden in plain sight, but if a 1% variance equates to 12L, and this is derived from the Time versus Distance equation you've described above, can it be evenly applied to the first two sectors i.e are they the same trip? If not, doesn't this require further adjustment of numbers?

Also, you state that you can eliminate ground-factors by using the 'energy expended over time' equation.....but you will surely use more energy on softer patches of ground than you would on quicker, and given the subtle variances that exist all over a race-track on a given day - let alone taken as a relative sample over a number of years - doesn't this equation tend to dismiss something that almost certainly has a bearing on pace, and therefore the Energy/Time equation?

I'm not trying to rubbish your research, or question its validity. I'm just trying to see if there will be a penny-drop moment for me, because as things stand, this kind of analysis looks just as flawed as any other type of analysis. Nothing is ever conclusive, and the suggestion that form-analysis (whatever its shape) is "guessing", and Time study has eliminated the question marks and evolved into a science, is to ignore the obvious.......we're all of us ultimately guessing.
 
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"to eliminate ground conditions each section is expressed as a % of energy used compared to overall time...a lower % means they are going faster than par".

OK.......I'm already tripping out my nut trying to read these numbers, so let me ask a couple of questions regarding the above:

Re your equation, I'm reading this as follows; If overall time is 100 seconds, each section should be run in 33.3 seconds, if each section is same distance. But that's clearly not the case based on %ages you've used above. Is it therefore based on the distance covered between each section? For example, if the sections are 4f, 3f and 3f exactly, would the '
target distribution' be 40/30/30 seconds?

I'm guessing the above is only right to a degree, because the target pace-distribution for maximum energy output might mean they need to go faster at the end, or mid-race, or whatever such analysis deems to be the case on a per-track/per-Going assessment. This is a clumsy way of asking whether the %ages are influenced by all of distance, ground and pace factors?

Once these percentages are established, do these constitute the 'par' you reference above i.e these figures
38.7...36.7...24.8

I readily concede that this could be down to me missing some crucial-yet-simple factor, that is hidden in plain sight, but if a 1% variance equates to 12L, and this is derived from the Time versus Distance equation you've described above, can it be evenly applied to the first two sectors i.e are they the same trip? Also, you state that you eliminate ground-factors by using 'energy expended over time', but you will surely use more energy on softer patches of ground than you would on quicker, and given the subtle variances that exist all over a race-track on a given day - let alone taken as a relative sample over a number of years), doesn't this equation tend to dismiss something that almost certainly has a bearing on pace?

I'm not trying to rubbish your research, or question it's validity. I'm just trying to see if there will be a penny-drop moment for me, because as things stand, this kind of analysis looks just as flawed as any other type of analysis. Nothing is ever conclusive, and the suggestion that form-analysis (whatever its shape) is "guessing", and Time study has eliminated the question marks and evolved into a science, is to ignore the obvious.......we're all of us ultimately guessing.

the reason i used the % method is it removes the need to adjust times..i have got them all adjusted for going as well as bare times..i know you don't like the going being used..hence we use bare times and compare each section to overal time.

the sections are all the same as they are between hurdles..I picked teh 3 examples as we are all pretty much in agreement..and the figures also back up..that those 3 races were run at even pace.

we don't need to know the distance between hurdles or teh going conditions with this method..although i do have those distances between hurdles and could express them in any way that suits.

no.. if it was a 100 seconds..it wouldn't be evenly split as all 3 splits are different distances..hence i've given you 3 examples of even pace to give you an ideal % split each section should give if run evenly..then i took the average of those 3 to benchmark any other race.

I'll use Vautour as an example

total time from 1st hurdle to finish = 220.12
time spent in first section = 85.4
% of race spent in 1st section = 38.8%

to find the distance in lengths faster or slower as i did with Rooster..his overall time was 225...time in first section was 84.7..which is 37.6%

as that is 1% faster than par [38.7%] we want to know what 1% of 225 is..which is 2.25 seconds..and treating 1 length as approx 0.19 seconds = 11.8 lengths. It doesn't really matter what you treat a length as..because in that first section we know that the race is being 2.25 seconds too fast.

those pars are pretty good..you can see where the pace is put in a race at a glance really

i've tried to keep this away from messing with times so that you can see quiet easily that Rooster Booster was winning through staying on when others had burned out. We have had another race similar to Rooster Boosters..that was Punjabi's win

these are Punjabi's splits

37.1%....36.2%...26.6%

compared to even pace gives..

1.6% fast in first section..20 lengths too fast
0.5% fast in 2nd section ..6 lengths too fast
1.8% slow in last section....21 lengths slow

as with RB..Punjabi ran slower later due to the fast early exertions...the whole field as with RB are slowing very quickly and the horse that stays best wins that kind of test..Celestial Halo was just beat in that..but was a stamina horse and like Punjabi relished that hard early test

if you get a number of horses that relish the stamina test..then they can stay with the lead...but they are all getting very tired and only those with reserves can keep plodding a bit faster longer

so saying..well such and such was on that lead and wasn't beat far..doesn't mean the pace wasn't too fast..it just means that some horses will tire quickly when going too fast early if they are speedier types..whilst others will just keep going and stay with the pace..but they are all stopping faster than par..you just can't see it by eye as you have nothing to compare with..something will always keep going no matter how fast they go
 
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But Punjabi was up with the pace throughout and stayed on to win a neck, with all-out speedster Binocular (who should have had the race set-up for him, if your pace argument is right) finishing only third.

What are Intersky Falcon's numbers? I'd quite like to see a comparison between IF and Punjabi's times, because I'm guessing the two ran very similiar races; with one winning a Champion Hurdle, and the other being well beaten by a proper champion who had his perfect conditions.....making him a hero, rather than a plodder. :)

One final point. Given the Champion Hurdle is self-evidently a Championship race, is it unreasonable for them to run above the 'standard' - especially in the early part of the race, where jockeys are inevitably keen as mustard?.....or are these also adjusted for class of race?
 
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I am a bit out of touch with all things racing at the moment but I'm always wary of any horse that tends to mess up the last fence in a hurdle race eg TNO/Irving etc. Ok, I know Istabraq did it sometimes [or was it just the once when Moscow Flyer beat him?].
 
But Punjabi was up with the pace throughout and stayed on to win a neck, with all-out speedster Binocular (who should have had the race set-up for him, if your pace argument is right) finishing only third.

What are Intersky Falcon's numbers? I'd quite like to see a comparison between IF and Punjabi's times, because I'm guessing the two ran very similiar races; with one winning a Champion Hurdle, and the other being well beaten by a proper champion who had his perfect conditions.....making him a hero, rather than a plodder. :)

One final point. Given the Champion Hurdle is self-evidently a Championship race, is it unreasonable for them to run above the 'standard' - especially in the early part of the race, where jockeys are inevitably keen as mustard?.....or are these also adjusted for class of race?

i've already covered the chasing pace bit:confused:

IF was going the same speed as RB..if RB didn't go as fast he would progressively drop back...the speed of the winner is generally the speed of the race as a whole over this sort of trip

the standard/par is based on % of race..it matters not what class of horse..the early % would still reflect the same % in any race..all the ones i use are based purely on the CH anyway..and they come out the same as already posted for even pace

if they were selling races the % would still be the same

i've already said that being with the pace makes no difference to winning or losing..if the whole field slow down due to early pace then the one who stays best wins..those that don't stay drop back

the end of Punjabi & RB's CH's was a tiring slog..due to the early pace..in such situations if the one that stays is the only one that does on the day...you get extended finishing distances..which looks impressive..but is just horses tiring more than they would if they had run off even pace. RB gets over rated due to his winning distance..because the eye has not took in the effect of pace which damaged those that needed even pace and got took out of their comfort zone

also in RB's race the ground was slower than many CH's so the distances get spread out even more

when HE bear RB there was no pace issue..they went even pace...which didn't suit RB as much as when he won.
 
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i'll leave it at that anyway...you'll never accept it i doubt..many people just make their mind up about things in this game and it matters not what anyone points out,..they just discard it and keep thinking same

my attitude is..i'll try and point stuff out..but after a point..even i realise people do not change their mind..and i'm basically just wasting me life trying to explain

its best to just to believe what you want really..i do..but i do try to make sure my judgement is backed up with some sort of logic or fact..most people don't give a toss as long as the next fav wins.
 
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EC1, I'm not dismissing your stuff - I just can't follow the conclusions you draw from the numbers. It's ignorance and/or bewilderment on my part, rather than disagreement.

Equally, there's little point in me reprising my arguments against the clock. The only thing I take issue with is your use of the word "facts". Whilst you can quote accurate times, everything you do from that point is based on a subjective interpretation of one form or another; whether it be weighting-for-ground, or the overall par you give a course, or a section of a course. In that sense, it's really no more scientific than lbs-for-lengths form assessment. :cool:

To Admin: the Cool emoticon should not have a smile, which is counter-cool. In fact, these new emoticons are generally all a bit hopeless - is there no way to resurrect the Wee Green Felly and the Previous Cool Guy??
 
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no i'm sure you aren't dissin it..i just think you've made your mind up that because RB won by a large margin its a great Champion Hurdler..imo it was flattered greatly...and its run the year after is more a reflection when the pace was true

its still a good hurdler...but that race isn't a straightforward A beat B x lengths job..there is more there to explain how that distance won by came about

just to add..RP comment on IF

Led at furious pace, headed 2 out, weakened last
 
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But how do you account for the other hold-ups not finishing in the same parish as Rooster Booster?

Westender was beaten 11L by Rooster Booster in 2003, and an almost identical distance (10.5L) by Hardly Useless in 2004.....in a race where there was no pace collapse. What does that tell us?
 
Rooster Booster who was probably a similar type to TNO..he only won a CH because the race was run at a ridiculous early tempo and all the speed horses were worn out 2 out..and he just plodded through.

stretching its a bit though. His Newbury performance was hardly that of a plodder. Also he ran just four times (out of 46) over 2m 4f. All at aintree and didnt win once.

Also he just beat the very reliable Monkerhostin giving just under two stone at Newbury 2m and then beat him by 3 lengths of levels a few weeks later at Aintree 2m 4f. Monkerhostin prefered further for sure but its some indicator
 
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Rooster Booster who was probably a similar type to TNO..he only won a CH because the race was run at a ridiculous early tempo and all the speed horses were worn out 2 out..and he just plodded through.

stretching its a bit though. His Newbury performance was hardly that of a plodder. Also he ran just four times (out of 46) over 2m 4f. All at aintree and didnt win once.

Also he just beat the very reliable Monkerhostin giving just under two stone at Newbury 2m and then beat him by 3 lengths of levels a few weeks later at Aintree 2m 4f. Monkerhostin prefered further for sure but its some indicator

Clive..if you feel that RB & TNO were & are speedy Champion Hurdle horses..then fair play to you..you won't ever change your mind..in fact..i've never known any person on here ever change their mind..so i'm not wasting any more life trying to do so. The more you back up an argument on here..the more the person defending their view sits put..so its a pointless exercise

your confidence in the horse must be through the roof i would think going by your regular defence of him at 2 miles..so i'd recommend wading in if i was that confident..go in big for the Champion Hurdle.

dip yer bread

then on that tuesday teatime come back on and let me know what reason you have when he gets beat..what will it be i wonder?

oh yes..anything bar..he hasn't got speed for a CH
 
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Don't understand the response but all I'm saying is that rb was successfully campaigned largely at minimum distance and didnt show the same form at further.
 
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