Champion Hurdle 2015

don't forget he was running over the stiffer 2m1 here that gives you that extra 1f uphill to get a head of steam on...and its not like he beat these easy..he was put under a lot of pressure..and the distance he put between himself and the second wasn't done sea pigeon like...it was graft

He was also giving 8Ibs away from an uphill launch pad

He's alwats struck me as being a horse who possessed tactical acceleration, possibly the only one of the recent crop who could compete with Hurricane Fly on that score. He first came to my attention (like he would a few peoples) when he skipped away at Warwick. He followed up doing the same to Fishers Cross at Cheltenham (probably went too early) but as McCoy said on the winner at the time in immediate winning post interview "sometimes the best horse doesn't win". I took the 6/1 at that point, and was counting my money after the first curcuit of the Neptune. They went so slow there that the extra half mile wasn't going to make any difference and it would come down to a sprint. again he skipped away from the field with a decisive burst of acceleration and won. At Liverpool he was stretched a lot more thorughout the duration of the race, but was a novice taking on older horses. In last years Xmas hurdle we saw the same thing as when defeated by Fishers. He accelerated away from My Tent, but was eventually overhauled as he ran out of steam

The horse he most reminds me of (perversely) is George Washington. He had that ability to opne up 2 or 3L's in the space of half a furlong and then try and defend it. His great asset is tactical acceleration, but a stop watch needn't tell you this. Even a sectional analysis can conceal it, and especially if it's spread between two timing points. What you really need to check out whether your eyes are decieving you is a radar speed gun like those used to stick 9pts on Live's driving license, othjerwise you're relying on your eyes. Well I'm a poor judge to the eye, but to me, he looks like an accelerator, and I'm sure if NTD had ever armed himself with a some proper performance telemetry he'd stop spouting this unproven nonesense about 3 miles.

The only way the New One becomes a factor at three miles is if they go slow - slow - fast and the race becomes a jog and sprint. His Neptune was the slowest renewal I hold a record for, but this was because of pace.

If you take the view that it could be a slow tactical affair in March (and they sometimes happen) then I'll be tempted by The New One and Hurricane Fly in a reverse forecast as the two horses I think have the most tactical speed, but since this market is invariably the most mature from an ante post point of view, I personally don't intend wasting much more time looking at it. The Champion Hurdle in the last decade has been pretty well priced up accurately months away and it's really just a case of picking one and crossing your fingers it gets there. Bear in minf though that it's very unusual for all five at the front of the market on Dec 31st to get there in March, so I'd expect some more casulaties yet and it's being on the right side of this lottery that defines the value for the most part as prices more often than not repsond to the field thinning out rather than any informative runs, most of which were anticipated and discounted in the price before the race
 
well i've been looking at the sectionals for both races yesterday. so if anyone finds them boring..ignore the post.

Firstly..they move the hurdles for this meeting compared with the Festival.....so i have timed from where the hurdles would be...its no problem..they are clearly marked....i have done this because i have solid pars for the County Hurdle + Triumph hurdle that gives me a very good idea of how yesterdays races were run.

Firstly the Juvenile race won by Hargam was nearly text book evenly run...these are winner times..not leader. I'll not arse about with % i'll put in simple lengths faster or slower than par. I have used the % method to get these figures. They aren't to the nearest nth..i have done them a couple of times to double check..so as good as i can get

par = ideal pace

Hargam
H1 to H3 = 1 length faster than par
H3 to H7 = 2 length faster than par
H7 to fin = 55.4 seconds

The New One
H1 to H3 = 0 = ideal pace
H3 to H7 = 5 length slower than par
H7 to fin = 53.9 seconds

The juvenile was a good solid pace and the overall time is going to reflect the true ability of the winner..a remarkably evenly run race..perfect pace really

The International was evenly run to the 3rd then there was an easing of pace..not ridiculous but it gave them chance to save something for the end compared to the Juvenile.

What you have to ask yourself is..should a horse as good as The New One be able to run from 2 out to finish just 1.5 seconds faster than a juvenile hurdler...juvenile has run faster than TNO did mid race..and to a degree early doors.

These are the timings..remember i've used the hurdle markers for the festival to get these

Hargam ..........81.3....97.0...55.4...total race time from 1st H = 233.7
The New One...81.5....98.1...53.8...total race time from 1st H = 233.4

Even with that lull mid race..i think i'd be wanting a CH horse to run a bit faster overall than a juvenile hurdler..as it is its run just 0.1 seconds faster

if you look at the time combined to 2 out Hargam would have been approx 7 lengths ahead of TNO at that point..and from then to the finish TNO ran 8 lengths faster..so if looked at in that way TNO would have won by 1 length..i'm not saying thats reality..but the times do not suggest any great superiority over the juvenile imo.

Comments welcome
 
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just to add..now i've used the Festival Hurdles placings to find the actual pace scenario..i might re time it using the actual hurdles to make sure it backs up the finishing effort..the 2nd last being moved isn't ideal for timing purposes..will be a tad more accurate using the actual hurdles
 
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EC1....to what extent should 'ease of victory' be taken into account, when assessing these times?

I'll try to ask this (in as least a ham-fisted way as I can manage), but what I'm getting at is:

I'm inferring from the above that TNO.....having reserved energy mid-race by going 'more slowly' than Hargam.......should have been finishing in a quicker time/greater distance, between 2-out and the finishing-line...relative to Hargan's time, at least......yes? And from this, we can question exactly how much TNO has achieved in beating the juvenile.....the natural inclination perhaps being to rate it lower, than a lbs-for-lengths view of the distance back to Vaniteux might suggest?

Hopefully, this is the gist of it, but if so, don't you also need to factor 'ease of victory' into the equation too, because TNO ran-on stoutly after being shaken-up, and could - presumably - have continued to run at that pace for further i.e. he has merely used his energy as he needed to, as the race played-out, rather than him being at the end of his energy as he passed the line?

Your numbers - to my uneducated eye - would appear to be based on a presumption that both horses gave all they had to give i.e they had expended 100% of their energies as they crossed the line...........my question is whether this was really the case regarding TNO?.......and if you/we agree that it perhaps wasn't, whether there is any allowance which could/should be applied for 'ease of victory'.......or is this always likely to be nebulous/guesswork?

Cheers, Grass.
 
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Going to have to disagree EC.
The juvenile race were racing further out than TNO.
TNO wasn't asked a question until jumping the last where I have him running a couple of seconds faster than Hargam.
Some will crib the winning margin but he won a dash. Also easy at that. He may have flaws but yesterday was hard to knock, whatever he beat.
 
i don't agree it was a dash Frankel..up to the third hurdle..a decent distance..they went even pace..thats not hanging about..yes tehre was a lull...but not some walk in the park lull..a mid race easing off.

Grass..i didn't think he won easily no..he was under heavy pressure after the last and i don't see how he could have gone any faster at that point

I think..imo..that with the lull mid pace..he should have run a lot quicker than a juvenile hurdler from the 2nd last

i'll re time using the actual hurdles like i said..including the last as well..give a better picture

when i first saw the overall times of both races..i expected TNO to have taken part in a really slowly run affair..for his time to be so poor compared to baby hurdlers

it might be me.
 
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There were still 4 in it jumping the last. Take out TNO and how many would be jumping the last in a Champion I would ask myself? That would tell me it wasn't a searching pace. There was everyone bar one in it two out.
He jumped the last with a handful giving the Hendo horse weight.

Difference of opinion on this one :)
 
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best lump on for the CH Frankel..if he won that easily he must be have every chance..how good is Hendo horse though?..how good is the 3rd though?

i didn't see an easy winner..so will pick something else i think

thats what its all about
 
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That is the response I expected EC :p

Clearly didn't beat top class. But won like he should have.
 
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That is the response I expected EC :p

Clearly didn't beat top class. But won like he should have.

thats what i'm trying to find out though..did it win like a CH hoss should have?

if i just look at the form of the race..3rd holds it down..wouldn't be so bad if TNO had won without being touched..but he was hard driven to assert..its all right travelling..its what follows that counts imo

the bula isn't a great guide to the CH anyway..but when it is..i don't really expect the winner to have to be driven like that to win it with a 133 in 3rd

8lb + 10 lengths to a 133 hoss = 151

is that good enough for a CH?

and thats without comparing it to a baby hurdler
 
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thats what i'm trying to find out though..did it win like a CH hoss should have?

if i just look at the form of the race..3rd holds it down..wouldn't be so bad if TNO had won without being touched..but he was hard driven to assert..its all right travelling..its what follows that counts imo

the bula isn't a great guide to the CH anyway..but when it is..i don't really expect the winner to have to be driven like that to win it with a 133 in 3rd

8lb + 10 lengths to a 133 hoss = 151

is that good enough for a CH?

and thats without comparing it to a baby hurdler

Well I think it would be hard to dismiss on the back of that, especially as he would have been seen to better light with more pace. Rest assured there would not have been 4 in it at the last.
This could be a question also posed at Faugheen. You look at the distance to second and 3rd. But granted more pace I would say he would have been even more impressive.
 
more pace where though?..the early pace was solid..then it eased a bit allowing them to bunch up 2 out..many belive TNO has a turn of foot..so he should have scooted clear if it was a speed test..whereas he was hard driven

i''ll have a look with the final flight involved in a bit..we will see where each horse is at that point..then see how many lengths TNO takes from H after the last
 
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Compare the pace with a typical Champion Hurdle though EC1.

The point is The New One has always been thought to be at his best off a fast pace. What he proved yesterday is he's got a turn of foot against horses who would have benefited more with the way the race was run. When he was asked he put the race away quickly and impressively.

To my eye he ran the best trial so far this season.
 
The point I'm trying to make EC is that Olofi wouldn't be jumping the last in the Champion in touch.
Generally the Champion would be pacier than it was yesterday.

I'm not saying TNO is going to win the Champion. I just think it's hard to crib yesterday.
Clearly in the Champion he lost ground before turning for home. So very valid argument that he was outpaced at that point which I do agree with. However no horse would have won with the interference he faced. I also believe with that in mind Sam didn't want to ask him too much to get back on terms as he had already used up some petrol getting back on terms. I do think he wanted to fill him up before he asked everything up the hill.
So though I think he was slightly outpaced, I think it may have been exaggerated by what had happened earlier.
Now clearly this is only my opinion and could be wide of the mark, but he clearly deserves another chance before final judgement on my part that he won't or can't win.
I fully get that some will have there stance on him full stop, and ultimately you have to be in someone's camp.

For the record, as it stands I am edging towards Jezki atm. Especially on decent ground. Soft ground could tempt me away. Though a certain Faugheen still has cards to play.
 
he had a decent pace for a long way Maruco..this was not a jog sprint job..i don't know where that idea comes from..yes there was a lull..there are in most races,,very few are run totally evenly

a jog and sprint job has them running 20 lengths away from par most of the way..this clearly wasn't the case yesterday.

many Ch's have lull in's pace Frankel..and some are slow early..only the slow early's are "slowly run" in the true sense of it..yes many CH's are hell for leather too

has it crossed your mind that Olofi was still there at the last..because it wasn't a hard enough race for him not to be?

he is clearly the horse we will talk most about before March i feel:)
 
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That's my point EC. Olofi won't even line up in a Champion.
The fact he was there at the last tells you that it turned into a bit of a dash.

Clearly we see this differently :ninja:
 
Until yesterday I didn't give TNO much of a chance in the Champion, but i agree with Maruco that was best performance seen in a trial so far this season.
 
Until yesterday I didn't give TNO much of a chance in the Champion, but i agree with Maruco that was best performance seen in a trial so far this season.

the bula is one of the worst CH trials known to man though..its better than the FF of course..but rarely kicks out a CH winner

next trial is the Xmas hurdle...another really bad trial for the winner of it re CH..TNO passed that test by being beaten in it last year..will be ironic he wins it this year..as that will be the kiss of death

these aren't good trial races really..they are targets in themselves...CH winner is probably just sat on sidelines whilst all these races use the energy up of their oppo's

i remember Intersky Falcon blitzing the Xmas hurdle...in them days i actually thought it was a pointer to Cheltenham...so went in on him...i soon learned that lesson.
 
Aren't all these races turning into poorer trials given that Irish horses have won more champion hurdles than lost since Istabraq?

Rock on Ruby was arguably unlucky in the Christmas Hurdle when winning the Champion, MTOY/TNO last year was the best British form. Katchit was beaten in the Bula before winning the CH. They arent bad trials, they just dont have the Irish challengers.

Wasn't it Jumps Road that held the form down of TNO last year?
 
i don't agree it was a dash Frankel..up to the third hurdle..a decent distance..they went even pace..thats not hanging about..yes tehre was a lull...but not some walk in the park lull..a mid race easing off.

Grass..i didn't think he won easily no..he was under heavy pressure after the last and i don't see how he could have gone any faster at that point

I think..imo..that with the lull mid pace..he should have run a lot quicker than a juvenile hurdler from the 2nd last

i'll re time using the actual hurdles like i said..including the last as well..give a better picture

when i first saw the overall times of both races..i expected TNO to have taken part in a really slowly run affair..for his time to be so poor compared to baby hurdlers

it might be me.

He may not have been able to go any faster, EC1, but TNO may have been able to sustain that gallop long after he had crossed the line - hence, if he'd started to gallop early, rather than simply allowing himself to be towed into the race, he may have won further........hence, the sectionals and overall time, may not tell the full story, as the race was run in a particular way.

FWIW, I don't rate the form of the Bula all that highly. But I think I can come to that conclusion regardless of what the clock tells me. Indeed, in this case, the clock might be telling me something quite misleading i.e that TNO isn't further ahead of a good juvenile than he should be.

I hope this makes sense. It's in no way intended to denigrate your research, only that I cannot myself draw quite as many firm conclusions from it, as you have.

Edit: I disagree with the suggestion that yesterday's race showed TNO has a turn-of-foot. He doesn't - he simply outclassed this opposition by a stone, and ran-on from inferior horses.
 
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He may not have been able to go any faster, EC1, but TNO may have been able to sustain that gallop long after he had crossed the line - hence, if he'd started to gallop early, rather than simply allowing himself to be towed into the race, he may have won further........hence, the sectionals and overall time, may not tell the full story, as the race was run in a particular way.

FWIW, I don't rate the form of the Bula all that highly. But I think I can come to that conclusion regardless of what the clock tells me. Indeed, in this case, the clock might be telling me something quite misleading i.e that TNO isn't further ahead of a good juvenile than he should be.

I hope this makes sense. It's in no way intended to denigrate your research, only that I cannot myself draw quite as many firm conclusions from it, as you have.

i wouldn't say i've really drawn any firm conclusions from it tbh..would need to look at other bula's time wise to try and put a mark on it as to how the juvenile fits into the comparison

probably not going to bother..sand eats all my time up as it is

teatime anyway;)
 
Compare the pace with a typical Champion Hurdle though EC1.

The point is The New One has always been thought to be at his best off a fast pace. What he proved yesterday is he's got a turn of foot against horses who would have benefited more with the way the race was run. When he was asked he put the race away quickly and impressively.

To my eye he ran the best trial so far this season.

Imo, there's nothing at all in Vaniteux's form to suggest he would benefit from a steadily run race.
Whatever turn of foot TNO showed yesterday, it was against trees relative to those he'll meet in a CH. 3rd run in 2 months too, which probably indicates he's not going to get much better.
 
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The only easing off came between the 5th-7th hurdles..thats why they bunched up before 2 out

These are the times between the actual hurdles











HARGAM34.0038.7017.8011.6027.1043.9039.1021.50
THE NEW ONE33.6039.1017.9011.8027.5045.1038.5019.90

<tbody>
[TD="width: 63"] 1to2 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 2to3 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 3to4 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 4to5 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 5to6 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 6to7 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 7to8 [/TD]
[TD="width: 57"] 8tofin [/TD]

</tbody>

if you look at both times up to the last flight you get

Hargam = 212.2
TNO = 213.5

from 1 out to finish

Hargam = 21.5
TNO = 19.9

so Hargam would be 6.8 lengths in front at the last..after the last TNO pulled back 8.5 lengths..so say a 2 length winner..he was giving 8lbs..but wfa is 14...as that is in Hargam's favour..we'll ignore it..add 5lb because a few think he won easy..lets call it 10 superior to the juvenile

Hargam will likely be rated 140?

150 for TNO..is remarkably close to the rating using Olofi as a form marker highlighted earlier

so two methods point to 150 ish.

is that enough for a CH?

thats one trial sorted;)
 
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