CHampions Day - Ascot
- Thread starter On The Bridle
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
If we did go down the route of following your favourite horses blindly you'd get a football situation where a large proportion of the followers are retards and you never get good debates. The betting aspect keeps it fresh and interesting.
And don't respond to my posts that way on this forum. We're not in the general sport section here.
And don't respond to my posts that way on this forum. We're not in the general sport section here.
Clive,
That is not what Euro is saying; he clearly means some people have blinkers on with regard to their favourites horses; it's not at all a comment on betting. You probably actually agree with him!
Its not a matter of following blindly. Has it occured to any of the losers here that races are sometimes watched for the sheer enjoyment of the achievement rather than some stupid "betting angle"?
If you think thats "fan boy" then your understanding of sport is pretty hollow to say the least
I can take the point about blinkered approach and it wouldnt be my way, but wanting him to win on sat goes a lot further for most than that
If you think thats "fan boy" then your understanding of sport is pretty hollow to say the least
I can take the point about blinkered approach and it wouldnt be my way, but wanting him to win on sat goes a lot further for most than that
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Sea The Stars was a fantastic horse but Frankel is much better
about being more exposed
I think Frankel has been more exposed
was a much better 2yo
and has proved he has trained on as 4yo
I think Frankel would beat STS in any distance bewtween 5f adn 12f
about being more exposed
I think Frankel has been more exposed
was a much better 2yo
and has proved he has trained on as 4yo
I think Frankel would beat STS in any distance bewtween 5f adn 12f
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
It is following blindly. There are people I know who were convinced right up until he was pulled out of the race that Peddlers Cross would win the Arkle despite the towering evidence against him. Despite the way Spinter Sacre tore him a new one at Kempton.
I can totally understand why people want Frankel to win on Saturday. I felt much the same way about Denman in all his Gold Cup's and even though I backed Long Run in 2011 I didn't get a whole lot of enjoyment out of it because for just a second or three it looked like the Tank would prevail.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Interesting. I think Frankel would dismantle any horse over a mile.
Dayjur would have beaten him over 5f and possibly 6. That's doubtful though considering how close Royal Academy got to him.
I think Dubai Millennium and possibly STS would beat him over a stiff 10f.
The likes of Generous, Suave Dancer and Peintre Celebre would have beaten Frankel over 12f.
We'll never again have a betting opportunity like this again.
davidjohnson
At the Start
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2007
- Messages
- 3,434
Given how disappointing most of the stayers have proved in the second half of the season, I think Opinion Poll looks of plenty of interest in the opener. Whatever has kept him off since the Gold Cup doesn't concern me given his excellent record fresh, he came from well off the pace in a steadily-run Gold Cup and is just about as good as any of these give or take a 1 lb. Think he's worth backing at 5's.
EC1
On a break
I am amazed that anyone thinks slow ground will hamper Frankel..have you ever watched his action?..he hits the ground hard with that big gambolling stride..i'll guess he is even better on it
when you look at Frankel..you have to say a mile on fast ground is right at the bottom of his distance scale..he proved at York he can be even better over further..its his most impressive performance there imo..visually
when you look at Frankel..you have to say a mile on fast ground is right at the bottom of his distance scale..he proved at York he can be even better over further..its his most impressive performance there imo..visually
Boycotted the place last year and didn’t get organised early enough to go this year. Premier/Club tickets have sold out long since, also Grandstand, but I’ve managed to secure a spot through a block booking by my local pub, so will be there after all...
Can’t see softish or soft going being much of a problem either. Frankel has upwards of a stone in hand of his rivals according to Timeform’s 147 and even if we don’t believe that the going shouldn’t be an excuse if he’s beaten.
The RP ran an item earlier this month on the likelihood of his participation in respect of the going:
“SOFT ground at Ascot would not stop Frankel from seeking to cement his place in racing legend with a 14th straight victory in what is likely to be his final race in the Qipco Champion Stakes...
Teddy Grimthorpe, said soft ground would not stop the four-year-old from seeking to light up Champions Day for the second year in a row and put the seal on a remarkable career. Only extreme conditions would raise the possibility of Frankel not running, and Grimthorpe said: "Frankel is fine and hopefully it will be a good race. I cannot say he’ll race come what may. “If the ground worsened we would look at it and make a decision. But I don't think he would be unduly worried by soft ground.”
Can’t see softish or soft going being much of a problem either. Frankel has upwards of a stone in hand of his rivals according to Timeform’s 147 and even if we don’t believe that the going shouldn’t be an excuse if he’s beaten.
The RP ran an item earlier this month on the likelihood of his participation in respect of the going:
“SOFT ground at Ascot would not stop Frankel from seeking to cement his place in racing legend with a 14th straight victory in what is likely to be his final race in the Qipco Champion Stakes...
Teddy Grimthorpe, said soft ground would not stop the four-year-old from seeking to light up Champions Day for the second year in a row and put the seal on a remarkable career. Only extreme conditions would raise the possibility of Frankel not running, and Grimthorpe said: "Frankel is fine and hopefully it will be a good race. I cannot say he’ll race come what may. “If the ground worsened we would look at it and make a decision. But I don't think he would be unduly worried by soft ground.”
I’d agree that Opinion Poll makes sense and I wouldn’t put anyone off a bet. Only remember that AOB got Fame back last season after flopping badly at the Curragh, good enough to win this. If they run to form Fame wins again, but I’d have to agree there is some doubt that he will.
Desert Orchid
Senior Jockey
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- Aug 2, 2005
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Sea The Stars wouldn't get withing three lengths of Frankel at 10f, stiff or even up the face of the Eiger.
I'm not sure Generous, Suave Dancer or Peintre Celebre would get within 5 lengths of him over 12f. (Obviously I'm working on the assumption that 12f would be comfortably within his stamina range, which I firmly believe it would be.)
There aren’t many that would have gone with him at a mile I’d agree (but I cannot agree he would have dismantled any horse at this trip). Which is all the more amazing when you consider he is probably even better at 10 furlongs. Such a shame we never saw him at 12 furlongs, who can say what he might have done.
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You might well be right to do that. I'd be tempted myself.
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...perhaps not, but there are a few we've seen that would have at a mile.
Frankel is certainly one of a group of horses that have been brilliant at a mile.
I'd like to say he's the best that I've seen at 10 furlongs, but on the evidence of a single run that's a hard thing to say. Maybe I'll want to say that after the weekend, but he'll have to do something phenomenal.
I too think he would have excelled at 12 furlongs, but cannot even get into whether he would have been better than the great mile-and-a-halfers.
For what it's worth Sea-Bird is still the best I've seen overall.
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EC1
On a break
we don't know how good Frankel really is as no horse has ever pressed him to full effort since he has learned to settle.
if he is a 147 horse just rated on him cantering away from oppo..then just what would his max effort be?
i think at full effort there isn't a miler from the past that would get near him..including the brigadier
if he is a 147 horse just rated on him cantering away from oppo..then just what would his max effort be?
i think at full effort there isn't a miler from the past that would get near him..including the brigadier
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I wouldn’t have thought that is right. We don't really know how good any of the really great ones were. Even without getting into whether he was better than Tudor Minstrel or Brigadier Gerard at a mile. Horses nearer to where we are today, in isolated races, such as Hawk Wing (Lockinge), Zafonic (Guineas), Zilzal (QE II) would have certainly got very close to beating him.
Overall Frankel has proved more consistent than these latter three, but can we really say Frankel would have dismantled Hawk Wing let’s say in the Lockinge? ...I think not:
Hawk Wing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiXbsSCdGLs
Frankel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpV82_Ct7kY
EC1
On a break
Frankel is in front of HW even on that run imo
Timeform also believe that making F 11lb in front of HW
Timeform also believe that making F 11lb in front of HW
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You see this is where I can't agree. I know that times don’t tell us everything but Hawk Wing was about a second and a half quicker and won by a good deal further (perhaps against weaker opposition) on what was reported and to the eye appears to be virtually identical going. Who can say which one won easier?