CHampions Day - Ascot

I rate Cirrus 140+
Nathaniel is 129

the ground and distance to suit more Cirrus


the figures have for Cirrus on vs or heavy are:
Dollar 135++
Ganay 139+
GP Deaville136++
Gontaut B 134++
GP Vichy 126+

on good ground
Dubai 126+
Champion 130
Dollar 127+


Nathaniel
Irish Ch 125+
KG 128
Eclipse 127+

KG 126p
 
Nathaniel's never raced on vs or hvy, but looks certain to improve for it.
He has 4lbs to find with Cirrus on official ratings, and conditions are set fair for him to run the race of his life tomorrow.
 
sunybay said:
EC
a stone in hand with Cirrus on heavy is something of other world, a horse from krypton should be.

I rate Frankel very high but.......
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Cirrus is just a bit better than SYT on heavy ground..Frankel is way in front of SYT..Frankel can be just as good..if not better on slow ground..again i'll mention his action..that of a horse that will act on any ground that Cirrus does

I think Cirrus is being built up into something he isn't here...he's a 1lb or so better than SYT
 
sunybay said:
I rate Cirrus 140+
Nathaniel is 129

the ground and distance to suit more Cirrus


the figures have for Cirrus on vs or heavy are:
Dollar 135++
Ganay 139+
GP Deaville136++
Gontaut B 134++
GP Vichy 126+

on good ground
Dubai 126+
Champion 130
Dollar 127+


Nathaniel
Irish Ch 125+
KG 128
Eclipse 127+

KG 126p
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i really can't see how Cirrus is that superior to Nathaniel Suny
 
no one has yet give a reason why his style of running or action would inconvenience him on soft. If i was backing against him on this ground, i would definitely want to have that on my side
 
EC1 said:
beating Giofra 8 lengths wouldn't be my idea of 139
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my ratings fits with that, not only with Giofra , with all the others too

most french horses on gropu3 level and listed are underrated in the RPR

I dont say Cirrus is sure to beat Frankel,
but Frankel needs to be at his very best on heavy ground to beat him , I think its unlikely.
 
Get the impression Hamm just doesn't like the great one, Bar.

See his quotes for Frankel in the July Cup after his 2000 guineas romp.:)
 
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Cirrus will relish the going, Nathaniel be suited to it and Frankel be fine. Under these circumstances Frankel should still be okay. The question is do his connections have the faith that we do? It will be more interesting than if it were run on Good anyway.
 
As well as the ground you might have to factor the short straight into the equation as well. On almost heavy going and without a long straight for him to proper let his huge stride do the talking he is vulnerable. I'm confident the French gelding can go very close tomorrow.
 
Euronymous said:
As well as the ground you might have to factor the short straight into the equation as well. On almost heavy going and without a long straight for him to proper let his huge stride do the talking he is vulnerable. I'm confident the French gelding can go very close tomorrow.
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The going on the straight course is bordering on good, Euro (g/s reading 7.3, far side) and I'd doubt the last 2 and a half furlongs will be a problem to him.
One who might have a problem is Excelebration, whose stamina is suspect anyway, and I'd make Cityscape the bet of the day to capitalise.
 
Bar the Bull said:
I think the rain should have stopped for now....maybe one more shower of 1mm or so.

Ascot was spared most of the rain. London got a good hosing.

Hamm, how many times have you opposed Frankel?
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Betting wise, twice, and collected ew, making more than those who backed Frankel...
 
Marble said:
Get the impression Hamm just doesn't like the great one, Bar.

See his quotes for Frankel in the July Cup after his 2000 guineas romp.:)
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You're not terribly well suited to reading an argument. Frankel's performance in the Guineas show a July Cup would easily have been within him. You seem to be missing the point that he could have been a champion over 6,8,10 furlongs.
 
There is no argument or doubt about it. You weren't saying after the Guineas they should run him in the July Cup to prove he could win over six or because it was a good stepping stone, you said it because you felt he won a poor 2000 Guineas (he was clearly a victim of his own winning margin imo and this made people like yourself draw negative conclusions), and that the July Cup would be preferable in your eyes to sticking over a mile or stepping him to 10F.

I myself argued they should have run him in the Epsom Derby, I'll leave it to you now over a year on to talk about how Cecil has been so conservative in his running of Frankel when you're clearly the last person to comment on such matters.
 
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Good news reet. Cda is drifting a bit too

Ive never had a penny on frankel or a penny against him. Doesnt matter at all to me either way. All we want today is to see the greatest horse of our lifetimes complete the full set (before premature retirement)

Betting is overrated anyway. Seeing great sport is what it should be all about. No horse has ever stunned and dazzled like this one. It was clear right from the royal lodge that this was something extraordinary

One last point. For all the criticism of cecils conservative campaigning (justified i believe), hes done a masterful job in getting this headstrong powerhouse to settle so beautifully in his races. A great trainer
 
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I'd still maintain that Frankel's been campaigned conservatively because of trepidation about the trip (there's no other sane explanation, really), and today's much his biggest test in that respect.
Still think he'll win, but not nearly so convincingly as he has in the past.
 
clivex said:
Good news reet. Cda is drifting a bit too

Ive never had a penny on frankel or a penny against him. Doesnt matter at all to me either way. All we want today is to see the greatest horse of our lifetimes complete the full set (before premature retirement)

Betting is overrated anyway. Seeing great sport is what it should be all about. No horse has ever stunned and dazzled like this one. It was clear right from the royal lodge that this was something extraordinary

One last point. For all the criticism of cecils conservative campaigning (justified i believe), hes done a masterful job in getting this headstrong powerhouse to settle so beautifully in his races. A great trainer
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Well said Clive. This is one of the few times I will go racing where the punting is secondary to the spectacle. I really can't wait!
 
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