Coronavirus

HawkWing said:
I view it like receiving medical advice from a doctor/surgeon. You a free to go down an unconventional route if you wish, but you need to be very certain if want go against medical advice and do this, especially when a life is at stake. That they were willing to do this with perhaps hundreds of thousands of peoples lives suggests that it was coming from an ideological position, rather than one of protection of the population.

Claiming that no one knows what's the best route to take is a weasel excuse when worldwide medical advice was crystal clear on what was unfortunately needed to slow down the virus from spreading.

Like the person who claims after the aromatherapy didn't cure a loved one's cancer throwing their hands in the air saying 'no one was sure of what what the best course of action was'.
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It's a completely different thing when whichever direction you choose leads to mass deaths and long lasting global effects.

It's a massive balancing act with no real correct way to do things.
 
Taiwan has handled the whole thing very well; ditto Iceland That's because they both heeded the warning signs and acted proactively in January.
 
Meg Grist
@LouiseMegan1234
Yesterday my patient died. The doctors had to choose between 3 patients who would get the ITU bed. They only had one ventilator left. My patient missed out because of her age. She would have normally had a good chance of survival. This is the reality everywhere..


This is a case for manslaughter,wtf is going on plenty of ventilators we are being told,as i said before thank fook they are speaking out..
 
AliGupter said:
It's a completely different thing when whichever direction you choose leads to mass deaths and long lasting global effects.

It's a massive balancing act with no real correct way to do things.
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Choose the expert advise that leads to fewest deaths. If you want to ignore that advice you'd better be sure that you can explain why if the chosen course of action fails. It was convenient that the chosen route by the UK was the one where the least disruption to everyday life. Most reasonable people would see this as a misreading of the impending crisis. At least us on this forum got to enjoy cheltenham.
 
I live in a B road down which a fair amount of people take their daily exercise (all so far obeying advice). At elevenses We sit in the front garden and so people often stop for a chat (seat to front gate a good thirty feet).

Yesterday a chap called Tony stopped. We had never met him before but he often goes by. Turns out he was a scientist by trade and used to work for the government. He was fascinating and we discussed lots of aspects of the virus. Firstly he said that scientists were notorious for all disagreeing with each other and all having the best possible answer to the solution. He said it’s incredibly hard to compare one country’s action to another simply because our genetic makeup differs and so what works for one might not work for another as well (also applies to why some ethnicities are seemingly succumbing quicker than others) He also said that politicians tend to respond to the scientist that shouts loudest. The NHS workers are getting it more/worse because with viruses the more you are exposed to, the more your viral overload is and obviously they are right there in the thick of it. I had read online that the Australians had discovered that Ivermectin which is used to worm cattle, has been found to kill off the virus on a Petri dish. He said that we should all be screaming for these sort of prevention methods rather than ventilators. Once the virus can’t jump from host to host, it dies off quickly and he said fortunately it’s a stable virus so not prone to easy mutation like regular flu. But he did say that this Coronavirus threat has been known about for a long time and it was inevitable (I read a paper recently on it in calves from 2004 and in that it suggested the same) and he couldn’t understand why governments hadn’t responded years ago.
 
HawkWing said:
Choose the expert advise that leads to fewest deaths. If you want to ignore that advice you'd better be sure that you can explain why if the chosen course of action fails. It was convenient that the chosen route by the UK was the one where the least disruption to everyday life. Most reasonable people would see this as a misreading of the impending crisis. At least us on this forum got to enjoy cheltenham.
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Ah yes, simple that. Except for the fact that there's nobody on this planet who knows which course of action to take to ensure the fewest deaths.

Not that deaths are the only measure either.
 
Desperate Dan said:
I would guess that he`s in a far more serious state than we are being told. Unfortunately, the default position for those around him(people he appointed) is one of lies, exaggeration and spin. Anything but the truth.
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If they are then they're going with the liebour playbook cos phoney tony, brown & campbell were the jedi masters of lies & spin.
 
AliGupter said:
Ah yes, simple that. Except for the fact that there's nobody on this planet who knows which course of action to take to ensure the fewest deaths.

Not that deaths are the only measure either.
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There was clear guidance which the UK didn't need to go to far to see. Everyone in Europe was gearing up for this. I don't know the answer to what's the best course of action, but I have the humility to appreciate the guidance from those experts who do. The guidance from the WHO at the time was to bring in measures quickly. Be draconian. Not to worry too much about being accurate but bring them in fast to get ahead of things and attempt to 'flatten the curve'. Ireland followed the advice with good rates of compliance but without the medical infrastructure establish that is present in the likes of Korea or Singapore. These countries were seen to be best practice. It involves social distancing, mass testing, progressing to 'coccooning'. UK (and Netherlands and Sweden) decided to go down a different route and welcome to virus into the community to create an immunity. Good luck with that. You have better experts that you chose to trust. If you do that, you better have your argument in place when/if it proves to the wrong course of action.The science was suggesting that it would lead to more deaths.

"The science has changed" said Matt Hancock disingenuously when the true scale of the deaths was outlined in the Imperial College report.

Acting as if this was a toss of a coin decision is nonsense and seeking to excuse any scrutiny of the decision. UK chose not to use the information from the established experts in the area (not inconsistent with other policies) and chose not to attempt to follow what was established best practice. Acting as if they were damned if they do, or damned if they dont is someone not willing to hold government accountable for any policy, even one with the consequences of this.
 
It is anything but a toss of the coin decision, it is you that is trying to simplify it to those levels.

Acting as if it is anything other than a precarious balancing act is sticking your head in the sand. It's not a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation. It's accepting the difficulty of this situation.

Must just be a massive coincidence that every Western country, no matter how prepared or how great their supposed measures are, is pretty much following the exact same curve at this stage.
 
Its not who is right or wrong, if you are riding the favourite in the Derby and you hear from someone that the better ground is up the stands rail. Everyone else thinks you are crazy, but you decide to make a bee line for it and end up losing by 10l, you'd better have your reasons for choosing to go your way. You might have genuinely thought it was the best thing to do, you might have been pleased at how smart you were for thinking outside the box, not like the rest of the sheep, but there are consequences of getting it wrong. Coming out to say in the interview after that no one was sure which was the best route to go down is nonsense.
 
Was the queens speech scheduled far in advance? It might have been coincidental to have the news break at just about the same time but if not, I would think things are very serious.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Mrs O has ordered me into quarantine.

I had a temperature earlier today and that was enough to set her alarm bells hammering.

I'm pretty sure what I have is no more than a chill from underestimating how cold the breezes were yesterday but there's no point in taking any chances. I don't have any sore throat, I haven't coughed once and I've sneezed twice all day, which would be pretty normal for me. All I have is the temperature and an unpleasant feeling in the middle third of my torso, which I get every couple of years and it lasts a couple of days. My temperature peaked at 37.7 earlier but is coming down again, 37.3.

Fortunately, the house can accommodate such an emergency situation.

I've brought just about everything I need into quarantine with me.
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Having had a very rough weekend with raised temperature and pretty severe stomach pains to accompany the Clydebank Blitz, I managed to speak to a doctor today. She said my symptoms are in line with coronavirus!

I haven't once seen or read anywhere that stomach pains and diarrhoea are symptomatic of Covid-19 but there you go.

She says I've to remain in isolation until Thursday and Mrs O has to self-isolate until the following Thursday.

I'm sure it's just a nasty bout of gastroenteritis but I have to obey the rules.
 
The curve is lessened for several countries (portugal and Ireland supposedly doing best by one measure) and few yet have reached the spikes of Italy and Spain proportions. UK looking worrying on that route.

You are acting as if there is no policy that can improve or worsen the effects.

In many ways it is a simple decision - do we follow the established expert advice that was guiding other countries and learn from the mistakes made elsewhere (option 1) or believe we do not face the same threat and do something other than option 1 (option 2). Would have been a good experiment or the makings of a great research paper, but was a decision that was going to cost tens of thousands of lives - something they quickly scrambled back from.
 
HawkWing said:
Its not who is right or wrong, if you are riding the favourite in the Derby and you hear from someone that the better ground is up the stands rail. Everyone else thinks you are crazy, but you decide to make a bee line for it and end up losing by 10l, you'd better have your reasons for choosing to go your way. You might have genuinely thought it was the best thing to do, you might have been pleased at how smart you were for thinking outside the box, not like the rest of the sheep, but there are consequences of getting it wrong. Coming out to say in the interview after that no one was sure which was the best route to go down is nonsense.
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We aren't 10L behind, we are at worst in line with every other Western country. We also haven't taken drastically different measures, we started social distancing measures earlier than most countries. It's just a fact that no has the correct answer to this and we will see what we could have done better, like every country, when everything is over.

It's just completely bewildering that people seem so averse to just following the rules that have been put in place and seeing what happens. Then we can judge once this is all over, that's all we can do right now. I do wonder if every other country that is having the same issues as us (all Western countries at the very least), has such a large number of the population being so certain that the Government is taking the wrong measures.
 
Thanks, simmo, I'm bouncing! I feel great today. Just a wee bit of discomfort every now and again in the nether regions.
 
No. Im Irish and I'm happy with measures that have been taken. The danger now is that if there is no big spike in deaths in the coming week, it will be harder to justify the measures that are currently in place. So far, there appears to be a big concern about the rates in nursing homes and there is always the danger with health care workers but few tragic stories are about than you would have expected. That the UK is now in line with everyone is of course due to the change in strategy to be more or less in line with everyone else - and to follow WHO guidelines that they were looking to bypass initially.
 
Desert Orchid said:
Having had a very rough weekend with raised temperature and pretty severe stomach pains to accompany the Clydebank Blitz, I managed to speak to a doctor today. She said my symptoms are in line with coronavirus!

I haven't once seen or read anywhere that stomach pains and diarrhoea are symptomatic of Covid-19 but there you go.

She says I've to remain in isolation until Thursday and Mrs O has to self-isolate until the following Thursday.

I'm sure it's just a nasty bout of gastroenteritis but I have to obey the rules.
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Take care Desert Orchid. Without being a doctor but the advice here is that if you are coughing, sore throat and fever, look to get tested. Those more than stomach issues being red flags. There is also around Dublin a bug that is going around that has similar symptoms to coronavirus but coming back negative - people being floored for a week with all the symptoms but testing negative.
 
HawkWing said:
No. Im Irish and I'm happy with measures that have been taken. The danger now is that if there is no big spike in deaths in the coming week, it will be harder to justify the measures that are currently in place. So far, there appears to be a big concern about the rates in nursing homes and there is always the danger with health care workers but few tragic stories are about than you would have expected. That the UK is now in line with everyone is of course due to the change in strategy to be more or less in line with everyone else - and to follow WHO guidelines that they were looking to bypass initially.
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This is the same WHO that have changed various parts of their advice on a consistent basis since the initial outbreak. Almost as though it's a moving target that we don't know everything about.

We must all follow the rules set out and wait and see how it goes. Once this is all over we can then give the Government the criticism it deserves (there will be plenty), and the praise it deserves (there will be plenty). Until then, or if there's any deviation from the current global patterns, we just don't know whether the measures are correct.

I personally look at the huge number of people losing their jobs and livelihoods globally and wonder whether these measures are worth sacrificing the lives of many in the long term to save the lives of a few in the short term. That's something that probably won't be able to be answered for a decade, but it's why I appreciate that it's a delicate balancing act. There appears to be some that would have you think that people don't normally die.
 
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