Current Standings In Jockey Title

wins second

give him the same ammo as JS..and there is nowt between them..in fact as far as betting them..i prefer sanders style of riding...less brown pants
 
I had a chat with the lovely Seb tonight at Kempton and he is not giving up this title challenge without a fight.

He is certainly not out of the title race yet... and he knows it! Great to see him winning on Royal Tender tonight for Brendan Powell. He gave the horse an absolute peach of a ride.

Come on Seb, you can do this! :clap:
 
OK, perhaps no one else cares, but I do and so (evidently) did a few hundred people at Kempton this evening who gave Seb a massive cheer when he won the first two races tonight. :D It just adds a little extra interest to some of us that are interested.

Each to our own, eh?
 
Originally posted by EC1@Nov 3 2007, 10:06 PM
what would prize money prove though
Click to expand...
Not much, but riding the Derby winner should carry more weight than a seller at Wolverhampton in terms of the jockey`s title.
 
I don't agree; Frankie probably had harder rides in Wolverhamption sellers (assuming he rode in any!) this year than he did in the Derby.
 
Unless a bet is involved does anyone really care about who is actually the best trainer? shrug::
 
No, because it's harder to get your hands on, and then train, a horse to win the Derby than a Wolverhampton seller.
 
Originally posted by Kathy@Nov 3 2007, 10:52 PM
Unless a bet is involved does anyone really care about who is actually the best trainer? shrug::
Click to expand...
The point i`m making Kathy is that the jockey`s title is hardly ever about who the best jockey is, just who rode the most winners.
 
How would you judge the best jockey though Euronymous?

Prize money doesn't really cut it for me because a jockey who is in a big stable would win it purely by riding the best quality horses..probably mainly at less than 5/1...whereas you could have a jockey riding 10/1 winners at a strike rate of 1 in every 3 taken to it's extreme.

which is the best jockey in these...

Jock A rides 100 winners from 300 rides...all favourites in 20k races
Jock B rides 100 winners...from 400 rides not all favourites in 5k races

hardly looks a fair way of winning a title...just a priviledged winner

riding against the odds is the fairest way of measuring ability imho..always will be.

riding MOST winners isn't particularly satisfactory I would agree..it will satisfy the betfair forum pundit..coz it's easy to understand..but as you say it's not a REAL measure of ability.
 
I think flat jockeys are all much of a muchness to be honest, certainly since Keiron`s ban. The days of Carson, Eddery and Cauthen battling it out seems a long time ago.
 
Joking apart Euronymous, if it were 2 different jockeys fighting for the title, I probably wouldn't care either, but having met both Seb and Jamie a this season, it has just made me more interested in the outcome than any previous flat season.
 
There's a huge amount of prestige involved - eg you often hear commentators, speaking of some long retired jock, "who was three times Champion Jockey in th the 19.....s"

It's something to look back on and be proud of when your career finishes early, as they all do for jockeys [and most sportsmen] - a tangible reward for all that hard work and sacrifice. And it's a trophy to show your Mum and Dad when they visit... etc etc

I can't imagine why punters persist in this weird idea that the all jocks are much of a muchness - I know we've discussed this endlessly before, but it's crystal clear to me that there there are a few really good jocks out there, and a few real muppets [rather more of the latter!], even if most in between are of a similar level. In addition some jocks are particularly suited to riding some kinds of horses [eg Spencer on hold-up horses, Philip Robinson and Kerrin McEvoy on front runners].

I don't know if you've ever had horses Euro and EC1, or been close to a yard, but if you have, I'm amazed you weren't soon disabused of the idea that it doesn't much matter who you put up on a horse!
 
I think there is a lot of generilsations there Headstrong.

I think the idea that certain jockeys are ALWAYS good on certain types of horses is not reallycorrect.

I haven't owned horses or been connected with a yard...but I know the kind of instructions I would expect a jockey to carry out.

What makes me laugh a bit is when Horse A is said to need to be held up..in fact..it doesn't actually need any such thing..it's a plodder that will go one pace and if the others go too fast and waste themselves ..it will then plod through at the end with what looks like a turn of foot..which is exactly the opposite of what it actually possesses.

The instructions given to jockeys must be to judge what is happening in a race and ride the horse..TO SUIT THE PACE OF THE RACE. If someone says to a jockey..you MUST keep this horse away from the pace..regardless of the pace..then the person giving that instruction is who is to blame when the horse loses or has it's heart broke trying to run late fractions that Pegasus couldn't muster.

Races are won by jockeys playing to the strengths of their mounts..within a pace scenario that is happening around them...not by following set rules that will lead to a horse having no chance given the way the race pans out.

I don't really believe in jockeys being good on ..front pace horses...and others being good on "held up" horses. I think it only takes two or three instances of jockey A winning from the fromt..and every pundit automatically tags them with..he's a jockey who is good at making the running...to me it's just win association that gets these tags..how many times has the same jockey led and got beat?...those are the invisible rides..the losing ones.

Yes it does matter who you put up..but only to a degree...there are just a few who I would avoid like the plague...but generally..given the same type of mounts..the top 20/30 jocks would all be very similar with the results they got..imho.

JS isn't particularly strong on hold up horses imho...he tends to just use that tactic more than any other...and because he has a lot of winners..those that stick in the mind are when he wins from off the pace....all his other winners/losers are forgotten..as most people have been trained to believe he is very good on this type of horse.

A good jockey to me ...is one that can make a variety of decisions himself within a race...JS is not such a jockey...he sets out 80% of the time to win from off the pace...no matter how ludicrous that decision is after 2 or 3 furlongs has passed. This to me is a flaw..not a talent. A good jockey will position his/her horse at the right place in a race..dependant on how those first few furlongs pan out pacewise..if a jockey ignores a slow pace and still sits off it..he displays a complete lack of judgement imho..and if I were lucky enough to own horses such a jockey would never ride a horse for me.

A major part of winning races is about judgement of pace...so to give a jockey a cast in stone instruction before a race..is not a good idea.

A really good rider should not need instructions..he should know or be told what a horse's requirements are in terms of stamina use..and then make the decision of where to put the horse once the race is under way and he knows how fast or slow the race is being run..by using his brain and his judgement of pace...simple...no need for set in stone tactics at all.

It makes me laugh when pundits say..jockey A has got a clock in head...hang on..they all should have..because there isn't much use getting up on animal if you ain't.

It's like saying a brain a surgeoun has got a steady hand ...as if it's unusual :dork:
 
How about this approach to determining the best jockey!

I may have mentioned Adrian Massey's site once or twice before on here, but I make no apology for that, and this is his approach to rating jockeys.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It is well known that some jockeys ride a lot more winners than others. That might be because they are better jockeys, but it might be because they are riding better horses or just riding a lot more often than the other jockeys. Some jockeys have many followers, so horses they ride, tend to have SPs which are shorter than they otherwise would be. Some jockeys have few followers so their mounts tend to have SPs which are longer than they otherwise would be. What is important for the backer (or layer) is to know whether a particular jockey performs better or worse than expected according to the SPs of the horses that they ride. For example, does Jockey A tend to perform better or worse than Jockey B on 10-1 shots.

These ratings are an attempt to indicate which jockeys are better or worse than average, taking into account the SPs of the horses that they ride.

The ratings are calculated as follows :

Firstly, by analysing a lot of races, I have calculated the average finishing position of horses at all different values of SP. The finishing positions are expressed in 3 different ways :

Win Percentage. For example, Horses with a SP of 3-1 on average may win 23% of the time.
Place Percentage. For example, Horses with a SP of 6-4 on average may be placed 62% of the time.
Percentage of Other Horses Beaten. For example, in an 11 runner race, the winner has beaten 100% of the other horses, the horse on last place has beaten 0% of the other horses, while the horse in 6th place has beaten 50% of the other horses (5 in front and 5 behind). It may be that horses with a SP of 2-1 beat 78% of the other horses on average while horses at 10-1 beat 37%.

Secondly, the finishing position of each of a particular jockey's mounts are compared to the average for horses at that SP. Taking an average of these comparisons gives a rating for the jockey. A rating greater than 100 indicates that the jockey tends to finish in a better position than average, while a rating less than 100 indicates that the jockey tends to finish in a worse position. Jockeys with higher ratings should give better value to the backer.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

His ratings are updated daily and as such a 'rolling' figure is produced and there are no ratings for a specific period and no 'Champion Jockey', as such.

Top of the pile as of yesterday morning was..................roll of drums............

FRANCIS NORTON with a rating of 147

Richard Kingscote and Sylvestre De Souza shared second place with 142

The leader in the 'title race' J P Spencer is rated. as of this morning, 98 with Seb above him with 105.

There is one surprising name near the bottom of the list.............

K. FALLON is rated 69 with only Emmet Stack on 68 below him.
 
EC1 - I see some of your points, and it's true a good jockey must be able to make his or her own judgments during a race. One reason JS gets so much stick on here is because he chooses to ride almost all horses off the pace, regardless - as you say, that's a flaw. But he *is* good at getting horses to settle which genuinely need to run off the pace because they pull too hard. That's quite a rare skill. And there's more than one reason why a horse needs to be held up - some need to be settled and covered up; some only run on 'through horses', it gets their juices going - they need to get on a roll and feel they are passing others - but stop when they get to the front.

Some others need to run out front, and stop as soon as they are passed!

As for trainer instructions, on the contrary they are very important, and a lot of races are lost for just the reason that the jockey doesn't do as he's told - which is rather too often. It's essential a jock is told a horse's quirks, ESP if he's never ridden it before - or the trainer wants to try a new tactics Some jocks are better at following intructions than others. I've even had a horse of mine finish out the back because the jock failed to follow instructions, more than once - same horse, different jock... :ph34r:

I've been in the parade ring with around 12/15 different trainers and listened to many many jocks being given their orders before a race. I've never once heard a trainer set the instructions in stone - they always qualify it by 'if the pace is.... ' or 'try to jump out handy, but if you can't...' In fact they usually try to deal with most eventualities, if it can be done briefly and without confusing the jockey. The older the

jock, the easier it is to hedge your instructions; rookies need it kept simple

Very few jocks have a clock in their head, by which they can judge pace on a front runner - which is why so many get caught before the line! In the past the only ones other than Lester who were brilliant at it were Steve Cauthen [from the USA] and the Aussie jocks like Scobie Breasley and Ray Cochrane. Why? - they learned their craft in a racing culture which had sectional timings. Even Lester iirc was best at the late pounce!

At the moment, of our native flat jocks who seldom if ever ride abroad, Robinson is by far the best at judging pace from the front. McEvoy is good because he learned in Aus. Frankie & Ted Durcan are also very good at it - both have ridden abroad a great deal, and in Durcan's case he's ridden a lot of Godolphin pacemakers over the years. It's a special skill

A final point - jocks usually decide who's going to make the pace before they go out [or in NH races it might be at the start]. I've often heard a trainer ask the jock in the PRing "So who's going to make it?' ... Depending on the reply, he might then say "well don't get in a fight with that one, keep a bit wide/try to hold him three back" etc etc.

It's when you have more than one front runner, or no-one wants to make the pace, that problems arise. Then of course, it's suicidal to sit off a slow pace, unless you've got one of those horses which can't be put in front until the line, or near it - and there are quite a lot of them, more than the average punter realises .


:D


Fascinating stuff Colin! Mind you I'm a Franny fan - his win on Claws at Wolves last Dec gave me a very big payday! He followed instructions ot the letter, btw ;^)
 
I rarely listen to a jockeys instructions given by any trainer in the parade ring. Much of it, in my experience ,is given purely for effect. I have never seen Brendan Powell ball out a jockey in public for not doing what he or she has been told but I know first hand exactly what happens behind the scenes should the jockey totally cock up a ride by not doing what they had been asked.

A couple of times recently I have been at race meetings without the trainer and it is interesting to see what the jockey does and says when they dismount and how it compares with what they say to me and what they say to the boss! One of the reasons Seb Sanders is shortlisted for one of my favourite jockeys right now! :D I have heard horror stories of jockeys cocking up a ride, realising the trainer is not there and then refusing to speak to the owners or just totally ignoring them. Totally out of order in my opinion.
 
That's inexcusable! if that happened to me I'd make damn sure the jock never rode my horse again... Come to think of it, I've usually found the jock is more forthcoming if the trainer's not there :D

I understand that some triniers give the jocks their 'proper' instructions in the weighing room then say something for show in front of the owners, but I've never got the impression that's what's happening when I've been listening. One trainer I know tends to give his orders when jocking up, but as he's largely incomprehensible anyway, I doubt I'd follow if he gave it in front of the group!

It's true that most trainers have to be very angry indeed before they bawl out a jockey on the spot for a poor ride - I sometimes wonder why they don't show a bit more feeling, but most of them spend most days trying to keep calm about so many things which go wrong, I suppose it becomes a habit.

One trainer remarked to me a few weeks back that any trainer's life "is largely about dealing with disappointment, and disappointed people".
 
True story.

A well known trainer was giving complicated instructions to a jockey who had never ridden for him before. About halfway through, the jock (a rather cocky lad) held up his hand and said:

"Listen mister - a good jockey don't need no instructions and a bad jockey can't carry them out anyway. So I guess you better not be giving me no instructions"
 
:clap: Priceless! did he ever ride for said trainer again?

Another true story: before Penzance's last race on the flat, at Newbury, Johnny Murtugh up:

Fanshawe: " Well you know what you're doing Johnny, I'll just leave to you, play it as you find"
Murtagh: "OK, I'll just drop him out the back then and get soem cover, creep through and put him in the race late..."

Assembled crowd of Elite members and staff all roll their eyes and nudge each other ... the horse liked to run out wide, nothing round him, and up with the pace... Needless to say he spat out the dummy early on and came in almost last :rolleyes:
 
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