Current Standings In Jockey Title

Apologies for appearing picky Headstrong (twice in one day too!), but I'm in that mode today. Re Penzance ~ did any of the connections work out How Johnny Murtagh would be able to ride such a race when he was drawn in stall one on Newbury's round course? It seems an impossible task to me!

I only looked as I thought it was an interesting angle ~ allowing for a horse's iniosyncracies in running style, but this doesn't really come through in Penzance's flat career (two wins, one when chasing the pace and one when held up last early). Was it perhaps a trait he showed in his work?
 
Well, obviously we all watched his flat races very closely! - and it was noticeable [to a few of us 'regulars' anyway] that he didn't like other horses around him. Murtagh won on him at Nottingham when as the RP records, he was 'always prominent'. Agreed it wasn't the easiest of draws, but Murtagh never put him in the race, it was a fiasco. He tried to squeeze him up the rails from the back, got bumped, and fell back, and that was that. A really poor ride, imo - I was furious on the day, as were most of us. If he'd brought Penzance round horses and given him some daylight, he might have run on
 
Johny Murtagh rode a friend's horse this year and gave it an absolute stinker. Another jockey took the angry trainer to one side later that day and evidently said that Murtagh had been out "on the pop" the night before and was suffering from one hell of a hangover which seemed to account for most of his rides the day in question. Jockeys are all entitled to off days but a jockey evidently suffering from massive hangovers was a pretty annoyng excuse to both the trainer and the owners! Of course it could have been a nasty swipe at Murtagh by a fellow jealous jockey.
 
Spencer suspended today leaves Sanders with Lingfield all to himself. He's got 6 rides, including 4 favs, a second fav and a third fav (going by RP forecasts). He'll be disappointed if he hasn't drawn level tonight... and Spencer's also suspended tomorrow, when there's two meetings.

No wonder Sanders is just shading favouritism on Betfair.
 
Since Murtagh is a known alcoholic and never drinks especially not in public I would wholeheartedly believe that was a nasty dig by another jockey
 
And even nastier to post such uncorroborated rubbish on here. Especially as most of Kathy's and HS contributions to this topic seem to be a gormless and rather embarrassing attempt to advertise how much in the know and well connected they are.

I am sure there are many on here that have more up close involvement to pre race conversations than the arms length access of a racing club with thousands of members, but wouldn't perpetrate these charcacter assasinations, because they have wit to seperate gossip fom fact. And that adjacency to celebrity doesn't quite rock their boat as much as others.

Shame on you both.
 
I don't agree with An.

If you don't like what I write An, tough. Your snidey little comments are tiresome. If you don't like what I write, just don't read it. Simple really isn't it? shrug::
 
If you think my post above is snide I suggest you consult a dictionary and check out the word D-I-R-E-C-T. You repeat an unsubstantiable character destroying allegation about a good man fighting a problem on an inetrnet forum - and you call me snide.

Further - your suggestion re J Murtagh above is not only malicious, it is also defamatory and I would urge you to ask a moderator to remove it as it is in my opinion, clearly actionable.
 
And we in turn get very tired of the mysoginist ranting of some of our fellow members from Ireland. A few of you seem to take great pleasure in ridiculing or criticising anything any woman says on the forum. Yes, we have a different approach to racing which is more 'personal', if you like, than those whose primary interest is gambling.

I've had ownership shares in horses with three different trainers, besides my club memberships - which have been far from "arm's length". If you really *use* your membership of any racing club, and I've belonged to four in the last six years [three with fewer than 150 members], the trainers become personal friends. Through such contacts I've built up a social network of owners and trainers [and people in other branches of the sport] which means I can if I choose go racing regularly with an owner's badge, even though I have very little money. I've spent most of the last two years virtually living in one of the Lambourn yards, through which I've met even more racing people.

Kathy has had many more horses than I have over a much longer period, and run syndicates; I for one find her personal experience of ownership gives very interesting and valuable insights, esp as she has in many respects been less lucky with her trainers than I have - until recently.

The point of mentioning how we have arrived at our opinions by citing our own personal experience is precisely to point out that it's not just gained by watching racing on telly, or gossip picked up in the RP or on forums. It interests some forumites to get first hand witness, even if it seems to turn others green with envy. As I've pointed out many times here, it's open to anyone prepared to put in the time and effort to meet people in racing and to spend their money doing that if they so choose - it does lead to seeing a lot of things quite differently.

I reserve the right to discuss any aspect of racing on here in terms of my own experience, why not? - if others choose not to, and to guard their own anonymity, that's up to them; but it makes it hard to know 'where they are coming from' and how much value to put on what they say. No doubt they have their own good reasons for being cagey.

I personally give a lot more credence to things I read on here which are written by people with first-hand experience of racing, and of horse-riding - in fact many of those who obviously don't have either often talk a load of ballocks, especially about horses, jockeys and riding. Why should those of us prepared to stick our necks out and tell it at first hand, be regularly slagged off for 'showing off'?

As for celebrity, ffs! Who's impressed by "celebrity"? - you? People in racing are just people doing a job; if they get their names in the paper as a result, so what? If you move in circles eg writing, journalism, art, publishing, theatrical etc [to name a few of those I've been involved in during my career] you meet people who who are or become mega-famous. You soon learn they're just people, esp if you share a bathroom and breakfast table with them! I've got heavily involved in racing at first hand because I'm now more or less retired, and have the time. Why not share that experience - if only to show that anyone who wants to, can do it? It doesn't even take much money.

My remarks on Murtagh are hardly character assassinations; they're criticisms of his jockeyship. I've said on other topics that he's a jockey I think twice about backing as he sometimes gets it spectacularly wrong - not often in Group 1s, but even in those sometimes. Certainly in lesser races. An Irish friend - an owner - laughingly said to me "Ah - well that's the money!" - I wouldn't know about that, but I don't think he's very bright. I also think his weight problems lead him to ride - more often than some others who can handle starvation more easily - in a state of severe dehydration, which leads sometimes to poor judgment [and can give rise to symptoms not unlike a hangover].

Finally, I've been a writer and researcher for most of my professional life: it's been drilled into me from academic life as well as professional life, that you give chapter and verse by way of reasons based in fact or experience, when offering opinions. I don't see why any of us who can offer that backup should refrain from doing so because it makes a few sad people jealous. I don't see why we should have to put up with our motives being constantly denigrated either.
 
A sound argument Headstrong. Everybody knows all Irishmen hate all women. You could have just left it at that and saved your typing finger the stress.
 
I will leave the reading community to consider the accuracy of your posts, HS and the academic diligence therein. I won't be predicable enough to point this post out to you in the future when you offer more of your habitual corrections of your previous postings.

Anyway - the gender thing has been introduced by you, so given your academic credentials we shall assume that your criteria of "that you give chapter and verse by way of reasons based in fact or experience" can be stood up, which is interesting given that we have never met and that you have no experience of my views on the topic.

My second last contribution to this topic; if you are not impressed by celebrity then stop name dropping incessantly.

My last contribution to this topic; my rare annoyance with this place was caused not by you but by Kathy who I believe has slandered a good man by repeating gossip. It is not opinions that annoy me, it is defamation.
 
If it's ok to defame one jockey, then why not also name the one who made this sordid accusation?
 
I would suggest, Headstrong, that not many people are impressed by claims of being in 'ownership' from those in racing clubs, even those with as 'few' as less than 150 members.

You get no say who rides 'your' horse as it isn't your horse. You can criticise Murtagh for being rubbish, which is fine - I dont like him either, but it is the racing clubs owner ( that is the real owner who is getting all the members to pay for his horses, cheers) and your bestmate trainers who you never fault that are the idiots for engaging the rubbish jockey. So have a go at them next time you're down the pub with them ! No point moaning about it afterwards, its you that chose to be in a cheap club with ten thousand fruitcakes where the horses arent yours.
 
OK, it's pick on Kathy week yet again. :) It was well overdue to be honest and I was just ticking the days off on the calender until the next outburst by the same old face. MOst recently on the Madeleine McCann thread, then the Northern Rock one, then was it the house price crash.... and now this one. Don't worry people this has been going on for years. Probably stems from a spat about Istabraq many years ago? shrug:: I'm not going anywhere An, so the quicker you get use to that idea the better. :)

Have to dash I am just off to watch that video of Paula Radcliffe winning that marathon at the weekend. Awesome performance yet again.
 
The funniest thing I have read in aons was posted on this thread - the idea that any members of Elite Racing Club would even have a clue, let alone that they had far greater insight than the trainer and jockey of a horse into how it should be ridden!! That is so priceless it wants to be cast in stone and put up in Forum's Gold for anyone to read when they're having a bad day - it certainly made me wet myself with laughter! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I'd also respectfully suggest that no-one on here is "green with envy" over the name dropping that occurs on here. As AC says, there are many people on here who are far better connected yet don't feel the necessity to bang it home in every single post!
 
I just don't get it? shrug:: There are people on this forum who want to talk about betting all day, others that want to talk about which horse will win a race in the future. Those that want to talk about form, or starting prices none of which really interst me to be honest. My interest in horse racing is being involved at ground level and I am sorry if this fact upsets anyone. I have been an owner for 13 years. Racehorse ownership and now breeding is where my main interest in racing lies. I love the many characters I continue to meet, I love going racing with my horses (and my friends horses) and consequently I meet jockeys and trainers very frenquently. OK, some of you may not be interested but then I am not interested in what horse is likely to win the Breeders Cup.

I find this thread quite funny bearing in mind the subject matter that has been discussed on this thread in the past.

I will not comment on this thread any further. That should be a great relief for a few of you! :)
 
Kathy, I was commenting directly on the assertion made [and not by you] that people are "green with envy" over the connections being talked up constantly on here. I really don't think that is the case, not least as plenty of people on here are actually better connected than that which is being commentated on ~ I am pointing out that because people don't feel the need to trumpet who they know or speak to on a daily basis doesn't mean that they don't know anyone so are dying of jealousy! (as had been suggested)
 
I've only met a few people who I'd describe as 'industry' and I have to say alot of them have been pretty unpleasent egotists. Now i realise that to some extent that goes with the territory, as the game is about opinions etc and arrogance/ over confidence might even be an essential trait to success, but the idea that I would be green with envy regarding someone who has access etc couldn't be further from the truth, in all honesty I'm more likely to pity them
 
Damn - my bad day has just got worse. I own 350 of the 9,400,000,000 issued shares in Microsoft. The stock is down 1.28% today. I am going to call Bill Gates* immediately and tell him exactly what I think off his strategy and staff. I am sure he will take my call.

(*Apologies for the name dropping.)
 
Some people's responses to others' 'connections' or personal experience DO come across as being motivated by envy and jealousy - whether that's their motivation for snide remarks or not, I don't know or care.

Neither Warbler nor SL have ever come into that category. Just for the record.
[And if you'd read what I said you'd see that...]. I've no idea SL why you feel the need to be so aggressive and strident most of the time, and so quick to put other people down - and not just on here - but I don't think envy comes into it. I wish you wouldn't - you don't do yourself any favours at all.


Uncle Goober, I'm a registered owner with Weatherby's, and have been for 3/4 years - not long but it's *not* racing club membership. I no longer have a horse, but I've had part *ownership* - as I've already said - in horses with three different trainers. If you think trainers are happy to have owners choose their jockeys, well - LOL! Maybe sole owners can choose, some of the time... most of them leave it to the trainer, and most trainers insist on that freedom. Where partnerships are concerned, that's part of the deal, though they might as a courtesy ask your opinion, or you can make a suggestion.

I can assure you too that being a member of a small racing club is EXACTLY like ownership, except you don't get the bills, so long as you have open access to the yard and the trainer, which in two cases I have done. You don't get to make the decisions - but then nor do most owners! In such circumstances, trainers treat members with a great deal of courtesy - knowing they might become owners at any time, which a good proportion do.

Elite is of course another matter; and the huge majority of the membership is invisible. But of the active members, large numbers are also owners in their own right, either as sole owners or via Axiom partnerships [max 12]. At one point there were about 30 horses in Clive Cox's yard all belonging to small partnerships of Elite members - but this was a separate thing from the club. These owners -and they were/are owners in the proper sense of the word - belong to Elite as well, for various reasons, mainly social, another being access to other top yards. Some Elite stalwarts like Dennis Shaw* now own several horses - but he retains his membership [or did til the split with Clive Cox]. Others are breeders, including a peer of the realm. There are some very knowledgeable people indeed among the membership, as well as the anoraks and the semi-ignorant. Why insult them all wholesale, when you don't even know any?

Some of the people who keep accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about seem very keen on making their own unwarranted assumptions. Some people really do need to grow up.

There's no point in trying to have a sensible exchange quite a few people on here - too many posters who reply immediately and angrily to posts, haven't even bothered to read what they're condemning - and that's consistent behaviour on their part. There's plenty of people around in the forums I don't like either - but I don't constantly indulge in catty remarks and personal abuse. [And why be surprised if people assume that kind of chippiness comes from envy?]

Forums should be fun, and for sharing the fun which is racing. I don't know why so many people have to make inter-forum relationships such a deadly serious matter of personal feuding and puerile point scoring. Bollocks to it.


* Dennis Shaw currently owns Woodcote and Pearly Wey and a few others, in the past he had Lago d'Orta etc. Dennis did very well with Lago, iirc his first horse which gave him the cash to invest further. I suppose he's a 'fruitcake'?
 
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