Youmzain needs a proper jockey who won't let him get into the kind of trouble he got into today. It made me want to throw the telly through the window. The way the horse was finishing... well, if RH had not been pulling the poor horse around trying to find a way through, and Youmzain had been able to get a steady run to build up that speed, who knows? He's not a 'jog and sprint'er ffs.
Dubai World Cup night
- Thread starter Hamm
- Start date
On what piece of form is Youmzain better than he showed in last season's Arc or indeed the year before? Nearly ran to the pound with Soldier Of Fortune in the Arc as he did earlier in the season.
When has Youmzain run to 130 or above?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
In last year`s Arc if he`d been extricated by the jockey earlier on he`d have pulled further clear from the placed horses. He ran to at least 130.
None of his form previous to that suggests he could have pulled much further clear of Soldier Of Fortune. You are rating last year's Arc too highly. There are far too many ifs around this horse for me to take him as a 130 plus horse.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Forget his previous form at St Cloud or Epsom. For me this horse is best at Longchamp. His best run as a 3yo was in the Niel (in a small field) and yeah he should win more but he`s one of those horses who needs his conditions and a good ride to show his true form. It would have taken a monster to have beaten Zarkava and turn of foot animals never win by far so it`s hard to rate them as highly as galloping machines. They both past the post full of running.
In Dylan Thomas's Arc he did not run to 130 either and he had conditions to suit (arguably even more so than last year).
Its all well and good saying "forget his St Cloud or Epsom" but the truth and the fact of the matter is he beat Soldier Of Fortune similarly at St Cloud as he did in two Arcs and on neither occasion has he run or merited a mark of 130 plus.
Good to have this debate back...the flat is certainly back!
He was dossing at St.Cloud - and was very badly ridden by Hopeless Hills in last year's Arc - I have no doubt he would have been much closer to Zarkava with a less injudicious ride .
Noticeable that Channon did not exculpate Hopeless tonight .
Noticeable that Channon did not exculpate Hopeless tonight .
Dossing? What was he doing beating Soldier Of Fortune by the very same distance again in the Arc when under an all out drive in Dylan Thomas's Arc. Seriously the form is there for everyone to see...Youmzain is a top class horse but a 130 plus horse he is not.
EC1
On a break
Youmzain is a plodder not a turn of foot horse, relies on others tiring themselves out off a too strong pace, then comes plodding through at one pace whilst others are going backwards..gives impression he is finishing when in fact its just others retreating..the old trick of the eye.
jairducochetfan
At the Start
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- Jul 22, 2004
- Messages
- 400
Gladiatorus went a mental gallop, anything that tried to even remotely go after him would have been killed off, if anything Presvis was flattered, I think time will show him to be an absolutely genuine Group One horse mind. Vodka who was probably one of the few that in any way "chased" the leader and she was absolutely done with come the line. And this is a track that is supposed to not suit front runners! Gladiatorus has been running figures that are hard to believe, he basically sprints for a mile and I think it's very very dangerous to suggest that the hold up horses were in anyway unlucky, they were just beaten by possibly the best horse in the world.
betsmate
At the Start
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- Dec 7, 2004
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- 5,752
Youmzain is a typical example of an unfashionable horse, that posts very good but not great performances. Those who recognise the merit of those performances (which is substantial) distance themselves from those that knock the horse believing that they are opposing the crowd and thus have found an edge. As this situation repeats itself throughout the horse's career these positions harden (often with the benefit of excuses i.e. jockeyship) to the extent that the supporters of the horse make claims (130+) that are as irrational as those made by his knockers (plodder).
Very good but not great in my opinion.
Very good but not great in my opinion.
prince regent
Conditional
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- May 2, 2003
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not to far of the truth maybe plodder a little strong he suffers a lack of any tactical pace hence the tedious screams of unlucky when in truth he cant quicken but in essence a statement near to reality
certainly not a great horse
hed make a great champion hurlder though
Sorry Prince that doesn't stand up . The horse has bags of pace over 1m 4f , but he does need to be held up for one late run . Channon and Hughes decided last year to ride him closer to the pace in the DWC - he cruised through in Sun Classique's slipstream but faded close home as he had been played too soon - worth a try but it did not work.
As for cannot quicken - give me strength - watch how he picked up in the Grand Prix de St. Cloud and in his Arcs charging after DT only just held off by a better horse on the day and quickening past the 3rd and 4th in the Arc after Hills had trapped him on the rails .
I think Galileo is right he is a 127/128 horse - but that makes him a considerably better animal than the 3 that beat him in Dubai
He quickened noticably when he got out on Saturday night - but it was too late by then for him to build up the momentum required. What he needs is to chase a strong pace but *with a clear run* so he can build up speed and get into top gear as he passes horses. It's disastrous to get him into trouble on the rail out the back, as he needs to get into a rythm: he can't suddenly accelerate at the finish, it has to be a steady windup.
That's why jockeyship is imo so essential to seeing the best from this horse - and why we have so rarely seen it. He has often been unable to produce his very best.
That's why jockeyship is imo so essential to seeing the best from this horse - and why we have so rarely seen it. He has often been unable to produce his very best.
prince regent
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- 588
ardross
are you sure it wasnt a case of thr 3 and 4th crying enough in the arc and therefore creating an optical illusion
im not decrying if he is wound up he as a one trick pony can come with a late run he is after all a stayer and probably , his trainer once thought of him as a cup horse allthough he does tend to take stabs at different targets, a far better stayer than most of his rivals especially I would say dom dt and zarkava who had won their races and were probably tiring at the end giving the impression of a fast finishing unlucky loser
however he does lack any tactical pace and his lack of accelaeration and the way he is ridden (probably to orders) is always going to cause him problems as if he meets even the slightest bit of trouble in running he dosnt have the change of gears tio get out of trouble and therefore what ever l chance ( and i think in most races its overblown) he has goes up in a puff of smoke
127/8 is not the sign of a great horse a very good one perhaps but again becuase its deemed he has run to this figure once its not a given he will or can do so every time
s mason in the rp did an interesting piece in the rp after xmas for every horse like azerty/moscow/kato/masterminded who have recorded multiple times figures in excess of 180+ there are at least 10-15 times horses that only manage to record this type of figure once in their racing careers
btw in your remininceesees of the past piggott would have ridden the winners rather than youzmain
are you sure it wasnt a case of thr 3 and 4th crying enough in the arc and therefore creating an optical illusion
im not decrying if he is wound up he as a one trick pony can come with a late run he is after all a stayer and probably , his trainer once thought of him as a cup horse allthough he does tend to take stabs at different targets, a far better stayer than most of his rivals especially I would say dom dt and zarkava who had won their races and were probably tiring at the end giving the impression of a fast finishing unlucky loser
however he does lack any tactical pace and his lack of accelaeration and the way he is ridden (probably to orders) is always going to cause him problems as if he meets even the slightest bit of trouble in running he dosnt have the change of gears tio get out of trouble and therefore what ever l chance ( and i think in most races its overblown) he has goes up in a puff of smoke
127/8 is not the sign of a great horse a very good one perhaps but again becuase its deemed he has run to this figure once its not a given he will or can do so every time
s mason in the rp did an interesting piece in the rp after xmas for every horse like azerty/moscow/kato/masterminded who have recorded multiple times figures in excess of 180+ there are at least 10-15 times horses that only manage to record this type of figure once in their racing careers
btw in your remininceesees of the past piggott would have ridden the winners rather than youzmain
Harbinger
At the Start
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- Mar 22, 2004
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- 11,282
Flame has mentioned a few times that Channon has wanted to run him in cup races, but that his owner (with much justification, it has to be said) has wanted to keep him at a mile and a half.
It would have been very interesting on Saturday if Hills had taken a similar route to Atjebi.
It would have been very interesting on Saturday if Hills had taken a similar route to Atjebi.
Good news for Yeats that he says at a mile and a half !
Nefertiti
At the Start
Ardross, this must be your day to pick on Yeats!
I did so last year to my huge regret. Thought the young and promising Coastal Path could beat him at Ascot, so put CP in my two TenToFollow lists. If I had stuck with Yeats instead (as I had in the previous year's TTF), I would have had more points than the competition winner - and lots of dosh! Must be hundreds of similar 'what if' stories though.
Re Youmzain I'm sure they'll keep him to 12f, but he will be up against more competition this year, and, yes, things really have to go just right for him.
I did so last year to my huge regret. Thought the young and promising Coastal Path could beat him at Ascot, so put CP in my two TenToFollow lists. If I had stuck with Yeats instead (as I had in the previous year's TTF), I would have had more points than the competition winner - and lots of dosh! Must be hundreds of similar 'what if' stories though.
Re Youmzain I'm sure they'll keep him to 12f, but he will be up against more competition this year, and, yes, things really have to go just right for him.
mrussell
At the Start
Wish I'd seen this earlier: http://www.gulfnews.com/sport/Horse_Racing/10297751.html
"Gladiatorus looks like great value at 14-1
By Geir Stabell, Special to Gulf News
Published: March 23, 2009, 23:04"
Published: March 23, 2009, 23:04"
Current horses in training...
Timeform Global Rankings - Top Ten
1 Gladiatorus 132
2= Well Armed 131
2= Youmzain 131
4= Conduit 130
4= Soldier of Fortune 130
6= Goldikova 129
6= Paco Boy 129
6= Septimus 129
6= Weekend Hussler 129
10= It's Gino 128
10= Yeats 128
10= Zenyatta 128
Timeform Global Rankings - Top Ten
1 Gladiatorus 132
2= Well Armed 131
2= Youmzain 131
4= Conduit 130
4= Soldier of Fortune 130
6= Goldikova 129
6= Paco Boy 129
6= Septimus 129
6= Weekend Hussler 129
10= It's Gino 128
10= Yeats 128
10= Zenyatta 128