Eclipse Stakes

You look at the weather to make an educated guess & adjust accordingly when rain arrives/doesn't arrive if needs be. I will probably ease Mukhadram and shorten NOT & Kingston Hill if the rain does materialise.

Some of my best ever bets have been dreamed up by looking at the Met Office website.
 
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If the figures at metcheck are correct the ground won't be soft. Not as firm as today but can't see it being soft unless there is more rain than forecast.
 
At his price though I'd have preferred a run over the trip. Does Hannon even know how to train one to run further than a mile.

They have had good horses over longer trips ( Census, Another Sam etc )but it is true to say best have been a mile and under .

I hope he stays but they thought Dick Turpin would stay and he clearly did not - jury out on Toronado I suppose as he couldn't breathe.
 
Hi everyone, this is my first post and I've really enjoyed reading through this forum, some very smart people with intelligent views on this site. I've loved horse racing since I was a kid and have been lucky enough in my life to have been present as Red Rum won his third National, watched Shergar glide over the mud, saw Dancing Brave fail to catch Shahrastani, Zafonic zoom away from Barathea and many other great days. Experience has taught me to use the formbook as a guide rather than a mathematical formula and I get much more enjoyment nowadays out of looking at the stories behind the horses. Here's my long winded (I was bored as the footie has finished) take on the runners in the Eclipse.

I took the 16's on Mukhadram as it seems that it's easy to forget he was more fancied than The Fugue at Ascot and is now available at 8x her price. I suspect he will be ridden more aggressively this time. Son of the excellent sire Shamardal out of Magic Tree who only ran once as a 2yo for Mick Channon who is a daughter of Moyesii who ran exclusively in France and was just below Listed Class, herself a daughter of the fantastically fast filly Cherokee Rose (remember her). He does tend to always find one or two too good, but has solid competitive group 1 10f form and the formbook is full of horses like this finally having their day (and also not).

Trading Leather a son of Teofilo by Night Visit (a daughter of a lightly raced Sinndar filly) so you would imagine stamina rather than speed is his forte but the bottom line is only 4 horses have ever finished in front of him in his 4 races at 10f including two very good group 1 events and as good as The Fugue is she's not 12x better than this chap. Last time out the race was not run to suit (held up off a slow pace) but he was still a bit disappointing and I suspect this is not his primary target for the season and this race will put him spot on for a big run in the KG, but the 25's that was available was really too big a price.

Tullius has been a joy to watch this year. Just beaten in the Lincoln has turned into a good solid group 2/3 miler this year. Going to give his connections a good fun day out, but this field is too hot.

Verrazano is an interesting one. Out of More Than Ready and a Giant's Causeway filly, he's beautiful to look at. Breeding suggests to me a true run 10f might be a bit far to see him at his best, but his racing style suggests he may well run well, but the price is very short when others with comparable or better form are available at bigger odds.

The exotically bred Zambucca has yet to show anything for her new stable.

The Fugue is a real star and 2/1 for a reason. Basically if your backing against her your hoping the ground will change, it won't be truly run, she will meet interference, will suffer from some exclusively female ailment or just go wrong like last year. A daughter of the Gosden trained Twyla Tharp who was essentially a listed class staying filly and was the product of a cross between Sadler's Wells and a Mtoto (that brilliant dual Eclipse winner) filly Sumoto who was trained by G Wragg and beat no less a filly then Sayyedati on her one run as a 2yo in the early 90's. I remember following her career as a 3yo where she was very disappointing, but the bottom line was she met a setback after her debut and never recovered that form and Sayyedati had needed the run.

Kingston Hill is a lovely horse and ran a great race in the Derby, but met a good one. His Dam Audacieuse ran exclusively in France and was a Listed/Gp3 10f filly. Her Dam, Sarah Georgina, only ever raced 4 times as a 2yo, but did manage to cause a shock and beat that brilliant filly In The Groove in a graduation race at Windsor on her second run before disappointing thereafter. I'm not convinced with the DI argument as last years winner Al Kazeems has a DI = 0.87 & CD = -0.07, he looks like he'll be an effective 10-12f 3yo horse to me.

Night of Thunder out of Dubawai, who was the best off spring of the ill fated brilliant Dubai Millenium (or Yazeer as he was originally named) is exactly the sort of horse I love to follow. His dam Forest Storm raced exclusively in Ireland for J Bolger and was a little bit short of Listed class and cost me a couple of quid without giving me much to shout about in her races. A daughter of Galileo and Quiet Storm (who was a similar type trained by G Wragg), Quiet Storm was the daughter of the Ian Balding trained Hertford Castle who was absolutely rubbish and never finished within 20 lengths of the winner in the 3 maidens she ran in. The reason I mention this is that Hertford Castle was born to be a star as she was the result of a meeting between the very game little Forest Flower and Reference Point and surely anyone with hair that is starting to go grey will remember those two and that's why my loose change was on Night of Thunder at 40/1 on guineas day. He should run a big race but the 9/2 available (will probably drift a bit) seems a little bit stingy, especially as there is a valid question whether he will be as effective over a true run 10f as a mile.

Somewhat who is in as True Stories pacemaker is the son of Sometime an unraced filly trained by the late Henry Cecil who was the daughter of another H Cecil trained filly called Alidiva, a good listed class miler in the late 80's and Somewhat is quite a nice colt, just not up to this class.

And now to the horse my money isn't on, but who I'll be willing on as the field turn for home. The Fallon talking horse True Story. Out of that good German horse Manduro and Tanzania who is the product of Darshaan meeting Rosefinch. Rosefinch was trained by A Fabre and was a filly whose career I followed with a lot of interest. Just like Hertford Castle she was born to light up the racing world and for a short time she looked liked she would as she won the Gp1 Saint Alary before slightly disappointing in the French Oaks in 1992. Rosefinch was the daughter of Blushing Groom and Oh So Sharp, how's that for stellar parents.

Finally War Command by War Front the sire of Declaration of War who is bred to get this 10f. His dam Wandering Star was trained by James Fanshawe in the mid 90's and was a good miler/ fast 10f filly who won the EP Taylor in Canada on her final start, the best form of any of the dams in this line up. It really wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he ran a great race, but he does seem to have developed a habit of getting outpaced when the field start to quicken before staying on, which could be a problem at Sandown.

As is obvious to all if the ground stays the firm side of good The Fugue is a strong worthy favourite, however I suspect this is not a race to bet your wage check on, but as the field turns for home I expect to see Mukhadram and Trading Leather in the firing line as Somewhat fades and will probably give a good run for my combined 9/1 bet before likely being caught by one or two near the line (most likely The Fugue), but my eyes will Oh So be on the great grandson of the 1985 Triple Crown heroine who I Oh So enjoyed watching.

I wish you all luck with your selection on Saturday, it should be a great spectacle.
 
Wow!
Welcome Ajdal; that is a seriously good perspective.
It gives the "feeling in my water" a wanting to pause for thought.
Have you any theory why fillies do not have a great record in this race ?
I was lucky enough to be there for Kooyonga's win in 92.
To be fair she was the only Group 1 performer in the race that year.
 
Have you any theory why fillies do not have a great record in this race ?

Because they're generally not as good as colts, and class matters more than weight in deciding the outcome. There's one today who is though. :)
 
I'm sorry but this is simply incorrect as it depends how far wrong her price is and how wrong the prices of other horses are (as in some too short).

I priced the race up to 100% as follows:

1 8.70
2 22.62
3 14.79
4 9.57
5 174.87
6 4.79
7 6.96
8 6.09
9 87.87
10 13.05
11 18.27

As you can see, I make Night of Thunder only just very very marginally over 5/1 therefore he isn't value for me despite me making The Fugue 8% bigger than her current price.

its incorrect to you..due to how you perceive value though Stan..that is the crux..we all see or calculate value differently..there is no correct way if what i do works for me and what you do works for you.

its a bit irrelevant now as it appears the rain has merely watered to maintainyesterdays surface

before i decide what to back i'll wait to see just what the ground is.
 
Have you any theory why fillies do not have a great record in this race ?
I was lucky enough to be there for Kooyonga's win in 92.
To be fair she was the only Group 1 performer in the race that year.

Except for the blatant after-timing:whistle::) an excellent first post, welcome Ajdal (you were never going to get a mile:D).

I suspect it's just a statistic that reflects that the colts turn up to enhance their stud career and have limited other races open to them, while for a competitive filly to appear she is running for her owners pleasure as the demand for a top broodmare is greater than the need for stallions and the younger fillies have so many easier options open to them at this time of year to get that black type and the good ones more often then not get whisked off to the harem ASAP. The Fugue has nothing to gain from winning this race and I imagine we are only lucky enough to see her here as her owners know they may never have a better one and are enjoying her while they can.

So few fillies ever run in this race, The Fugue was wrong last year, Snow Fairy was on her first outing, Ouija Board met trouble in running, Islington just met better horses, Shiva didn't get the clearest of runs, Bosra Sham famously got boxed in in a 5 horse race, but wasn't on her A game that day and met a very good horse in Pilsudski and before that Kooyonga won in 92 and I think she was the last 3yo filly to enter this race. So you could present the statistic another way and say that in the last 20 odd years every 3yo filly who has entered has won. Of the other's going back in time, In The Groove went backwards after the a hard race in the Coronation Cup, Indian Skimmer needed soft to be at her best which she didn't get on her 2 runs and Triptych ran into Dancing Brave and Mtoto and that just leaves the brilliant Pebbles and she did the business. The only other filly I remember was Milligram and 10f wasn't her trip. One thing is for certain, The Fugue isn't worrying about the statistic, the only concern I have is that her last race might have taken the edge off her as it was only 17 days ago and despite how easy it looked a performance like takes an effort and she may not put in another A+ run so soon.

I only mentioned backing Night of Thunder in the guineas (and it really was with just loose change for an interest not confidence) as a warning not to follow my advice; can you imagine backing a horse because of his great grandma, who was so slow she couldn't win this race even if she started at the furlong pole. In defence of my fondly remembered Ajdal, he stayed a mile, they all stay, just not well enough to be a real competitive Gp1 miler, he would of had no problem if he could've got in a 0-60 mile handicap at Beverley :D

Thanks for the kind words and warm welcome.
 
Adjal. Went you on trf? Good posts ..

My big concern is also about those that had a hard race at ascot. I'm coming round to Kingston hill
 
Ajdal-superb first post -Kooyonga was a 4year old in 2002-I can never forget her -when she ran at Royal Ascot I had recently arrived in London with barely enough to survive in my pocket-I chanced a lucky 15 25/1 and 16/1 winners with Kooyonga at 15/2 who was first past the post only to be disqualified.
 
Ajdal-superb first post -Kooyonga was a 4year old in 2002-I can never forget her -when she ran at Royal Ascot I had recently arrived in London with barely enough to survive in my pocket-I chanced a lucky 15 25/1 and 16/1 winners with Kooyonga at 15/2 who was first past the post only to be disqualified.

shocking after stuff Luke:)
 
Kooyonga was a 4year old in 2002-I can never forget her -when she ran at Royal Ascot I had recently arrived in London with barely enough to survive in my pocket-I chanced a lucky 15 25/1 and 16/1 winners with Kooyonga at 15/2 who was first past the post only to be disqualified.

Oops... My bad, I stand rightly corrected, alas, my memory sometimes falters as the birthdays pop by. Guess that throws the 3yo filly statistic out the window; Lies, damned lies, and statistics is the saying that comes to mind.

Kooyonga really was a wonderful filly and to make it worse I doubt she would of lost that Ascot race under the rules nowadays, I really hope the wheel of fortune repaid the debt it owed you.
 
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Very little rain no going change and lots of non runners - rather ironically Richard Hughes book of rides is the main casualty - four non -runners !
 
difficult card to assess yesterday as only Presburgs race was a really decent time..i got the track riding 19lb per mile fast which is just into Good to Firm territory.

I find it interesting that using the Racing Post standards only made it Good ground..because their standard time..as at Newmarket ..is set too near G/F rather than Good like it should be...i always wonder if this is done at the big courses to always make it look like ground is slower than it actually is..ie if trainers see the true time compared to standard there would be more complaints

if using the RP standards here and at Newmarket means that when its actually hard ground..it would only show as G/F....keeps people happy..less complaints

a classic example of how the RP make top courses always look like slower ground than it actually is is the comparison between Notting & York 5f tracks..both flat..Nottingham 5f stand = 58.4...and yet York is 57.5. so if its hard ground at York..the standard makes it look just G/F.
 
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shocking after stuff Luke:)

But believable...........Kooyanga @15/2 (returned 9/1) Brief Truce @25/1 and Richard Hannon's Beyton 16/1 (returned 12/1) and the worse thing is if it were today Kooyonga would probably have kept the race as she won by 1 1/2 lengths. Anyone making it up would have given the SP's because they wouldn't know the early morning prices.

Unlucky Luke surprised you never topped yourslf:lol:
 
On this ground, anything over 2s on The Fugue a decent bet . KH wont like it and NoT didnt look like a top class horse at Ascot.
 
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I'm going for a surprise with War Command

I liked his effort from the back in the SJP..an effort that wouldn't have have been easy

If he stays then a stiff uphill finish is right up his street..he has entries in big 10f races after today and he could well be the forgotten horse that has slipped under the radar..but AOB is teh master of getting them spot on for the real target race.
 
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