Epsom Derby 2012

Grey said:
What trip are you talking about when you say Frankel is the better horse? Do you think he'd beat Camelot at weight for age over the Leger trip, for example?

If a race was to take place between the pair what would be the trip fairest to both?
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Actually I was a thinking a 6 furlong sprint....... Just kidding.

10 furlongs would obviously be the best distance. I don't buy into the "stretching Frankel's stamina over 10 furlongs" theory. Think he would give Camelot a serious beatdown wfa and all.
 
brendanr said:
Actually I was a thinking a 6 furlong sprint....... Just kidding.

10 furlongs would obviously be the best distance. I don't buy into the "stretching Frankel's stamina over 10 furlongs" theory. Think he would give Camelot a serious beatdown wfa and all.
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what is Frankel's best trip do you think?..lets say they stepped him up to 10..then up to 12..would he still be better at 8 or one of those?..and how would you gauge beforehand which trip should be best
 
The combination of Frankel going 2f further as a 4yo, and seeing Camelot step down 2F to what I think could easily be his best trip in 10F, would make it a sufficient test for both horses and mean really anything could happen.

If Camelot wasn't as good a derby winner as Workforce, but can win a Guineas, then that might indicate to us that in reality, against top top class opposition, 10F might bring the very best out of him.

In short, I think Camelot is a fantastic animal, and the thing that could get Frankel beat over 10F is Camelot.
 
Marble said:
The combination of Frankel going 2f further as a 4yo, and seeing Camelot step down 2F to what I think could easily be his best trip in 10F, would make it a sufficient test for both horses and mean really anything could happen.

If Camelot wasn't as good a derby winner as Workforce, but can win a Guineas, then that might indicate to us that in reality, against top top class opposition, 10F might bring the very best out of him.

In short, I think Camelot is a fantastic animal, and the thing that could get Frankel beat over 10F is Camelot.
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I think Camelot is more speed than stamina..not a genuine miler..and as yet not tested in a strongly run mile and half..10 could see him looking pretty hot
 
I would find it very hard to decide a programme for Camelot at this stage. There's one hell of a difference between 14.5f at Doncaster and taking on Frankel over 10f.

The St Leger is a tough race, especially if the trip is near a horse's limit. Plenty of good horses get beaten in it and even if he wins there is a risk it will leave insufficient recovery time for his next and final outing. The idea of emulating Nijinsky would of course be appealing but the suspicion would remain that they only chose that route in order to avoid Frankel.

I can see them going to the Curragh next. Coolmore get so much out of the Irish Derby that they will be expected to give something back. If he sees out that trip well they can then make up their mind about Doncaster.
 
Frankel's worst performance came when he faced the biggest test of his staying power, arguably his best over Goodwood's sharp 1m.
His stamina for 10f is no foregone conclusion.
 
It's also worth remembering, that Camelot is basically a hold up horse with a deadly turn of foot over both a mile and a mile and a half. Frankel generally likes to be much more prominent in his races: So I think a match over 10F would mean Camelot would have to set much more consistently fast fractions throughout the race to stay with Frankel, whereas Frankel if anything might have to slow his down slightly, or even his out over 10F to ensure he'd stay.

This might favour Camelot if he could stick with Frankel in the middle part of the race which is where Frankel so often destroys his opposition.

Thoughts on that, EC1?
 
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brendanr said:
Actually I was a thinking a 6 furlong sprint....... Just kidding.

10 furlongs would obviously be the best distance. I don't buy into the "stretching Frankel's stamina over 10 furlongs" theory. Think he would give Camelot a serious beatdown wfa and all.
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I think Frankel will have no problem with 10f and he would certainly start an odds on favourite over that trip. 12f would be different.
 
reet hard said:
Frankel's worst performance came when he faced the biggest test of his staying power, arguably his best over Goodwood's sharp 1m.
His stamina for 10f is no foregone conclusion.
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He looked a professional racehorse in the Lockinge, and not just an explosive talent like he did at three. He was relaxed before and during the race and saved his energy for when his jockey called for it. I think he'll easily get 10f this year.
 
reet hard said:
Frankel's worst performance came when he faced the biggest test of his staying power, arguably his best over Goodwood's sharp 1m.
His stamina for 10f is no foregone conclusion.
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the problem with the Ascot run is he was ridden in to the ground in the middle of the race..that effort would have seen most if not all other horses finish last..don't forget he cruised home over that same c/d at just 2yo with no probs

i can't judge him on that run or even his guineas win..now that he is settled its a real racehorse we are seeing

when he beat CC he really came of age..he was in control of his immense energy and it was used at the right end of the race

i would love to see him run that Ascot race again with his current demeanor

the way he won over 8f at Ascot 2 tells me he should have no probs with 10f..but there are no guarantees in this game...I would love evens though against Camelot over 10f
 
Marble said:
It's also worth remembering, that Camelot is basically a hold up horse with a deadly turn of foot over both a mile and a mile and a half. Frankel generally likes to be much more prominent in his races: So I think a match over 10F would mean Camelot would have to set much more consistently fast fractions throughout the race to stay with Frankel, whereas Frankel if anything might have to slow his down slightly, or even his out over 10F to ensure he'd stay.

This might favour Camelot if he could stick with Frankel in the middle part of the race which is where Frankel so often destroys his opposition.

Thoughts on that, EC1?
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yes i think C would be taken out of his comfort zone in a similar way to CC..look at how CC went to pieces when took out of that zone..thats what Frankel does..look at Excelebration when he isn't running against F..he looks real smart..against F you can see him being taken out of his comfort zone
 
EC1 said:
look at Excelebration when he isn't running against F..he looks real smart..against F you can see him being taken out of his comfort zone
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I think he was ridden for second in the QEII - which resulted in his best effort of the year. Frankel is the flat version of Denman. He destroys dreams.
 
EC1 said:
what is Frankel's best trip do you think?..lets say they stepped him up to 10..then up to 12..would he still be better at 8 or one of those?..and how would you gauge beforehand which trip should be best
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Nobody can seriously look at that Ascot race and come to the conclusion that is what he is.I think for now his best distance is going to be 10 furlongs but would not discount 12 furlongs just yet. He is such a big imposing horse and for that size is only now getting into what I like to call his maturity sweet spot meaning from now until the end of five years he can still progress in ability and possibly in distance. Frightening thought although we'll never see it. At the end of a 3yo's life that process is in the main still a work largely in progress. If I got evens in a Camelot vs. Frankel race I'd leverage almost everything I own to get on that price.
 
reet hard said:
Frankel's worst performance came when he faced the biggest test of his staying power, arguably his best over Goodwood's sharp 1m.
His stamina for 10f is no foregone conclusion.
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He seemed alright with that same test in the Royal Lodge when a less strong, less mature horse. Any suggestion that his St James's Palace was stamina related are well, well wide of the mark imo.
 
One can look at that Ascot race in whatever way suits their pet theory, but Frankel was asked to do little more than he had in the Guineas, yet came very much closer to being beaten.:)
 
davidjohnson said:
He seemed alright with that same test in the Royal Lodge when a less strong, less mature horse. Any suggestion that his St James's Palace was stamina related are well, well wide of the mark imo.
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By the same token, DJ, he was racing against other less strong and less mature horses, therefore it wouldn't have been the same test.
 
reet hard said:
One can look at that Ascot race in whatever way suits their pet theory, but Frankel was asked to do little more than he had in the Guineas, yet came very much closer to being beaten.:)
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Don't agree at all that he was asked to do similar in that ;) Ascot race. At Newmarket he went balls to the walls right out the gate. At Ascot Queally tried to rein him in and when he realized that might not work panicked and forced the horse into a brutal acceleration about five furlongs out. No wonder he was tired after that burst. Today he is a different animal who can settle and then accelerate when he needs to and do that for a long way. Also Queally now understands what he has much better so personally I won't hear of defeat for him over 10 furlongs until I see it.
 
reet hard said:
One can look at that Ascot race in whatever way suits their pet theory, but Frankel was asked to do little more than he had in the Guineas, yet came very much closer to being beaten.:)
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if a mile was to be run like that then why does everyone else go 8f pace and not the 5f pace Frankel went?

its a fact that you can't run 5f pace at a mile ..and show your best..not a theory ..thats why the fact he won the guineas and SJP are astounding feats..ones you will not see not done in that fashion again

Rerouted rated 110 was beaten 42 lengths in that race..that's what going too fast does to ordinary horses
 
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Marble said:
Can I ask fellow forum members, I've seen a lot of positive vibes in the press for a St Leger tilt, but is anyone out there banging the drum for a Camelot-Frankel race?
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It doesn't seem like it and that pisses me off too be honest.

A match up between Frankel & Camelot would surely generate way more excitement than Camelot running in the St.Leger.
 
think Frankel V C is going to be difficult..on TRF they are saying that Camelot isn't running again until the leger..if true its a good job Hen Knight don't train him :)
 
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