Fighting Fifth

I tell you what Gareth, we should all be bowing down to the great, peerless Irish tipsters on this forum who have never, ever in living memory overrated a horse nor uttered a wrong opinion - nor said anything complimentary about any horse trained in the UK nor anything uncomplimentary about an Irish trained horse, God forbid!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Dec 2 2007, 09:30 PM
Well, f*ck me pink!!! We are privileged to have a number of Irish forumites on here who have the prophetic capabilities of Nostradamus!

So that's it - Katchit is crap, he cannot improve and he can never, ever be mentioned in the same breath as such legends as Harchibald, Hardy Eustace or Brave Inca.

How very, very wrong I am.
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One by one..

Well, f*ck me pink!!!

Erm.. no... :D

[/B]Katchit is crap

No

he cannot improve

Given his size, I wouldn't think he's got much improving left in him..

he can never, ever be mentioned in the same breath as such legends as Harchibald, Hardy Eustace or Brave Inca.

Time will tell, but he has no piece of form to suggest he is within two lengths of any of them (I've ignored your hyperbole) as of yet..
 
I dont think anyone here said that Katchit was utterly useless. I still dont think he is utterly useless. He ran his best race at the weekend, but I think he will struggle to win an all aged group 1.

Katchit has to prove he can be mentioned in the same breath of champion hurlders Brave Inca and Hardy Eustace. He can be mentioned in the same breath as Penzance, Faasel, Detroit City, Katarino and all those very good juvenile hurdlers.
 
Why are you getting your pannies in a such a knot, Shads?

Nobody has suggested that Katchit is useless or crap, nor has anyone suggested that Harchibald is Sea Pigeon (don't mind what Grasshopper says- he's twisted :D )..
 
Out of interest trackside, since when has a horse's size (in the respect that it isn't a large animal) been a measure of whether or not it can improve?!?!?! :laughing:
 
I would just like to interject at this point to say that it is foolish to believe that small horses stop improving at a point decided by people who think small horses dont improve much once they have already won a decent race at the age of four.

I read that in a book called 'Big horses aren't always slow' ( first chapter ' Big horses dont necessarily need it heavy )
 
You can check me pannies if you like trackside - they're in no knots!!!

I am simply bemused by the suggestions that Katchit is another overrated 4yo who cannot overcome the 4yo hoodoo (and thus that yet again, my opinions are "so, so wrong" !! )- on the basis of one run alone!

It's a bit early to hammer the nails in the coffin, isn't it?
 
Well he was 5/4 to win a race that would be far less competitive than a champion hurdle at the weekend. And came up short like many who thought he was an overrated 4yo who cannot overcome the 4yo hoodoo. But, I think everyone was open to the possibility, and are still open to the possibility to some extent that he could do it, but there are far more question marks surrounding him now than before the weekend. But I guess you might not see it that way.Those who thought that he was an overrated 4yo are probably right.
 
As Garney said, size of course does not prohibit a horse from improving, but it is usually a fair estimate..

On that score, Katchit has virtually no scope for physical improvement..

Out of curiosity, do you reckon he has improved this year Shads?

As for the panty situation- I think I'll defer... for now :nuts: :D
 
How can it be judged whether he has or has not improved at this stage of the season? In tandem with that, how can he be judged an overrated 4yo on the evidence of the one run against his elders where he ran a respectable race, beaten a smidge over 3l?

I also have to disagree that on size alone, Katchit has little or no scope for improvement. He is four years old!!! He will continue to strengthen for a year or two hence.
 
Each to their own I suppose..

Probably is too early to tell alright w/ regards to improvement though I will bare my arse in public if Katchit beats Harchibald...
 
Katchit has raced 26 times...4 times as a two year old....12 times as a 3 year old on the flat....5 times over jumps as a 3 year old....and now 5 times over jumps as a 4 year old....its on this basis and on the basis of his size and lack of scope that I would be amazed if Katchit progresses significantly.

Again he has race 26 times and he is not even 5 yet.
 
The Racing Post have Katchit improving almost half a stone this season at Aintree (155 up to 160), but only maintaining that level at Newcastle. On their figures, for a typical Champion Hurdle, he needs to improve another 10lbs.

Harchibald, similarly, needs to get back to his previous level of 170, of which there has to be some doubt.

Sublimity is no cast-iron certainty (sorry DG!) but even if we take him to be the most likely winner at this stage, if something was to happen to him it would be wide open again.

But as much as Katchit would be right in the mix, so would the likes of Jazz Messenger, Afsoun, possibly Sizing Europe if he keeps improving, and of course Macs Joy - who it looks like will be taking Katchit on in the Bula. If MJ can put last year's form behind him, the current 25s will look massive.
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Dec 2 2007, 10:09 PM


Harchibald, similarly, needs to get back to his previous level of 170, of which there has to be some doubt.
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Why? With Brave Inca and Hardy Eustace out of the picture he may win a CH off 165. Obviously Sublimity is the most likely winner but the race was set up for him perfectly last year.
 
In the context of the point that Katchit needs to improve 10lbs. If 165 wins it, Katchit only needs 5lbs.
 
Katchit is a decent tough horse but for a 5yo to win a Champion Hurdle he needs to be a really high class hurdler and I don't think Katchit will be good enough. For me, the best English contender for the CH is Afsoun. He ran a great race for a 5yo to finish third in last seasons CH and he travelled really well on his comeback run only to be outstayed by Hardy Eustace in the end. I think he's headed to the Bula hurdle next and we'll find out alot more about his CH credentials in that race.

As for Harchibald. He looked as good as ever on Saturday and if he gets to Cheltenham in good form I can't see him out of the first three.
 
As far as i can see Katchit was well and truly exposed yesterday-he will not win a Champion Hurdle.I don't usually get involved in the whole Ireland/England rivalry but Ireland is awash with hurdling talent at the moment and its hard to think of a credible English contender.
Listening to Meade and Carberry in seperate interviews today their obvious affection and regard for Harchibald was unmistakable.Maybe he will never win a champion but he has a fair amount of grade 1 winning form and I will never forget how far he let Rooster Booster get away from him before reeling him in effortlessly.
I had my biggest ever antepost bet today on Sizing Europe at 22s-not saying he is a certain winner but I think he will shorten in the next few days.
 
In fairness to Katchit, he might have a good chance at Cheltenham once he doesn't get too big a weight for the County Hurdle.

Best to save him for that, methinks.

Shadow misses a very basic point. Katchit got within 3 lengths of Archies yesterday. However, if there had been another horse there for Archie to chase...ala Rooster Booster in the Christmas Hurdle..then Harchibald would have been one length ahead of that horse at the end and probably a further ten or so lengths ahead of Katchit.

Sadly, this really is an issue of nationality. Such is the desperation for an English Champion Hurdle contender that for the past two seasons people have been clutching to the hope that an above average juvenile can improve from that standard to being the best hurdler around. It's just not going to happen. But, hey, there' s plenty of money for the rest of us to be made from laying. Aside from Afsoun, who proved his dues last year and last week, there's reason to say that the top seven or eight two mile hurdlers around at the moment are Irish trained. Its a fact..yet Shadow's tip for the FF was Katchit followed by Blythe Knight. It can only be described as delusion.

It happens, no doubt if any half decent Irish staying chase this season is won by an Irish trained horse then people might be deluded enough to think he'll have a chance in the Gold Cup against the big three. He won't, but that's what happens. Kauto, Exotic and Denman rule the roost there....Sublimity, Harchibald, Macs Joy etc rule the two mile ranks.

Interested to hear that about Sizing Europe, Luke. I only watched the Greatwood for the first time yesterday and was taken by how he travelled so well under a big weight in the conditions. Certainly, he's something of an unknown quantity. Then again, I expected more from Bobs Pride this year coming from handicaps and he's been found out although maybe he will be better again in the spring.
 
As I said Bobbyjo I would be putting Sizing Europe forward as a value play and not a racing certainty.Without a shadow of a doubt the remaining 20s with the bookmakers will be gone tomorrow.I would also be looking to back deValira,Ebaziyan and Clopf at big odds and hopefully on the day back Sublimity to save my stake.
I had high hopes for Bobs Pride at the start of the season but its hard to see him making the grade.
I would be adamant that Katchit and Blythe Knight wont be winning.
 
Oh hang on Mr Journalist Boobyjo - hadn't you better get back to researching your facts before posting?! There was me thinking Darkness was out for the season, unless you know better!!!!

As for the nationality issues, they tend to start with you, darling. You'll be buried in green, amber and white won't you?!
 
Jesus Christ Shadow, the Darkness thing was a fucking joke...I didn't even bother responding to it on the other thread because I was astonished you took it seriously.

You were the first person to mention nationality on this thread. I admit that in days of yore, I would get wound up by such issues. Now, I quite enjoy using it as a means to stir things up a little but unfortunately most people are wise to it.

Most people....
 
I got as far as page 3 of this thread, and then got tired. Interesting, though.

Has anybody considered the fact that Harchibald may stay a bit further now that he is rising 9 years of age?

I was on Katchit on Saturday, as I am not a Blythe Knight or Clopf fan and I thought Harchibald was past it. I was wrong about Harchibald.

It will be amazing if Katchit wins a Grade 1 race again. Harchibald apart, it was a weak race on Saturday. He couldn't even beat Al Eile.
 
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