Oh for Heaven's sake! The horse was WRONG last year, and won the Gold Cup the year before. An on-song Denman would probably beat him again but I'm in no way convinced the horse is ever going to be the same again
Gold Cup 2009 (was: Denman)
- Thread starter Guest_
- Start date
Oh for Heaven's sake! The horse was WRONG last year, and won the Gold Cup the year before. An on-song Denman would probably beat him again but I'm in no way convinced the horse is ever going to be the same again
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Mmm, he was wrong and yet put up a better performance in finishing second than he did in winning it. He`s at least ten pounds inferior at Cheltenham than he is going right handed - that makes him vulnerable and rank bad value at 2/1
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Gearoid
Guest
2/1 now gone.
Kauto Star 7/4 (General)
Kauto Star 7/4 (General)
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Mugs ahoy.
EC1
On a break
when the 4.00 race has been run...it will be very easy to see if Madison is a world beater or a beater of a sick horse and one who hated the ground...the clock will give a real good clue to the worth of the form
I got 4 on BF last night and that is the price I was prepared to back at. if Denman is never goign to be the same horse as he was, there is nothing else to beat Kauto - in my opinion. At 3/1 I was prepared to find out. It's all about opinions!
Listening to Paul N just a moment ago on Ch4, one thing is certain: Denman is not going to be given the hardest of hard races he was given last year, ever again, even to win a 2nd GC. He's done it already; and I am certian they won't risk killing the horse to get a 2nd GC. And make no mistake that is what we are talking about.
When my dog got a heart fibrillation I was told never to let her off the lead again or I risked her keeling over dead. it's not as trivial complaint as it's been made out to be
Listening to Paul N just a moment ago on Ch4, one thing is certain: Denman is not going to be given the hardest of hard races he was given last year, ever again, even to win a 2nd GC. He's done it already; and I am certian they won't risk killing the horse to get a 2nd GC. And make no mistake that is what we are talking about.
When my dog got a heart fibrillation I was told never to let her off the lead again or I risked her keeling over dead. it's not as trivial complaint as it's been made out to be
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Is it me or when you watch Ruby over fences he looks pretty poor. Sit's very quiet but never seems to go for horses to find a stride.
He looked a passenger on Denman and was jumping poor, Osako D'Airy looked poor as well.
I watched Ruby on a few of late and saw him deck a horse the other week in Ireland, was cruising, went to the front and then took a pull into the last rather than fired him in and it tipped up.
He seems to ride too patient and not committed enough to get horses organised and jumping. He seems to get a lot of good horses jumping badly. It has to be noticed how jockeys like Christian Williams and Sam Thomas who aren't afraid to kick on, or send horses into fences get these horses going better.
I've never been the biggest Ruby fan and accept Denman didn't have everything how connections wanted today, but when Ruby rode him as a novice I remember him making similar errors such as today and it was only in the Sun Alliance and in a small field race at Newbury he really impressed, when leading.
Today seems to confirm to me that backing Ruby over a fence is a recipe for going skint. Simon not long ago drafted a lot of horses which fell for Nicholls, looking at those horses 90% of them were with Ruby.
He looked a passenger on Denman and was jumping poor, Osako D'Airy looked poor as well.
I watched Ruby on a few of late and saw him deck a horse the other week in Ireland, was cruising, went to the front and then took a pull into the last rather than fired him in and it tipped up.
He seems to ride too patient and not committed enough to get horses organised and jumping. He seems to get a lot of good horses jumping badly. It has to be noticed how jockeys like Christian Williams and Sam Thomas who aren't afraid to kick on, or send horses into fences get these horses going better.
I've never been the biggest Ruby fan and accept Denman didn't have everything how connections wanted today, but when Ruby rode him as a novice I remember him making similar errors such as today and it was only in the Sun Alliance and in a small field race at Newbury he really impressed, when leading.
Today seems to confirm to me that backing Ruby over a fence is a recipe for going skint. Simon not long ago drafted a lot of horses which fell for Nicholls, looking at those horses 90% of them were with Ruby.
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Gearoid
Guest
Are you that critical of all jockeys Flame?
I think Denman run just a fine race but seeing Paul Nicholls in RUK , he didnt look very happy with this performance .
I am very happy with my antepost on Neptune Collonges, he is the favorite in my book for the Gold Cup.
If he wins well next week at wincanton or Leopeardstown I can see him 3/1 in the Gold Cup day.
I am very happy with my antepost on Neptune Collonges, he is the favorite in my book for the Gold Cup.
If he wins well next week at wincanton or Leopeardstown I can see him 3/1 in the Gold Cup day.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
The leading bit is irrelevent, he impressed because he was on courses he loved. Ruby did nowt wrong today.
EC1
On a break
that still doesn't explain the loss Flame
Denman never looked like the same horse and has run as flat as a pancake today
Nichols was completely gutted...which under the circumstances tells you a lot...if they didn't really expect the win todaqy he wouldn't have looked as gutted...he has patently run way below what they expected of him
I actually felt scared for the horse in running...it crossed my mind that he might drop dead...I actually hope they never run him again.
Denman never looked like the same horse and has run as flat as a pancake today
Nichols was completely gutted...which under the circumstances tells you a lot...if they didn't really expect the win todaqy he wouldn't have looked as gutted...he has patently run way below what they expected of him
I actually felt scared for the horse in running...it crossed my mind that he might drop dead...I actually hope they never run him again.
EC1
On a break
Suny
he never really took part..his jumping was nothing like last year...at any stage
he never really took part..his jumping was nothing like last year...at any stage
Is this a wind up ? :lol:
Denman didn't jump well from word go . To me he was never really travelling and M de B left him for dead . The idea that Ruby was to blame for his disappointing jumping is, IMO, laughable .
As for the others what the hell was Alberta's Run doing running on that ground - Trabolgan has gone and should be retired . Joe L ran a stinker and Niche Market was never going to be good enough .
Has to be said M de B is a much improved horse and jumped really well today but I fear the old cliche they never come back applies to Denman .
This is looking like an open GC . I love KS but his worst efforts have come at Cheltenham - he looks the most likely winner to me ( though I think Exotic Dancer looks very good ew with Jonjo and the horse both in so much better form ) . Somehow unless ED bombs in the Irish Hennessy I doubt Ap would be all that keen to ride Denman - Sam T must have a great chance of getting the ride back.
Cheltenham is his best chance of beating KS - last year ED was plainly wrong - the year before was a bizarrely slow GC . I still think KS is likely to beat him but following his Lexus win he is long ew .
Isinglass
At the Start
Ardross Is this a wind up ? :lol: said:
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Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I`ve got 40s on ED and I covered with 12s on Neptune a few weeks ago. It`s best to leave the front two alone this year.
What heart problem, Headstrong???? What is it that you know and Rossdales don't?
He may well have another problem since the well-documented trip to Rossdales but I know that, unless there was the most massive cover up which involved falsifying vet records and telling a senior member of staff a pack of lies, that there was nothing amiss with DENMAN's cardiac work ups while he was there.
Which I find hard to believe..
He may well have another problem since the well-documented trip to Rossdales but I know that, unless there was the most massive cover up which involved falsifying vet records and telling a senior member of staff a pack of lies, that there was nothing amiss with DENMAN's cardiac work ups while he was there.
Which I find hard to believe..
Isinglass
At the Start
Crikey - I agree again. Are we having an affiar or something? :lol:
It made me very sad to watch him stumbling for words as it told the story that he did think Denman's finest hours might be behind him. The way he agreed that KS was their best chance, and then added Neptune, was telling. At least of his immediate response to the race.
I am not one to build horses up and then knock them down, it will be really a loss if Denman cannot come back. He's been magnificent.
I agree - KS is no value at all .
I think I said at the time, back here around the time of the Betfair Chase, that - for what it's worth - I spoke to someone who would be very close to the Nicholls operation who expressed the opinion that Denman was gone and would never win a race again. Seemed a bit drastic, and I'm sure he will win a race of some description but I'm inclined to think - in terms of the top top prizes - it could prove correct.
Will look pretty stupid if he goes and wins Gold Cup now though!
Will look pretty stupid if he goes and wins Gold Cup now though!
I've made it clear already why IN MY OPINION I don't think a fibrillating heart is ever something which is done and dusted - it's always going to be there under the surface. Everything which Barber and esp Findlay has said today in interviews emphasises that they understand that.
That has nothing to do with cover ups.
In addition, as both Findlay and Nicholls have said today, Denman was pushed to the utmost last year to set punishing fractions in the early part of the Gold Cup to run the heart out of KS. He was pushed to the very limit which as the team have admitted today (poss for the first time) may have CAUSED the heart problem. One thing is for sure they can never push him to the limit again as they did last year, since they will ALWAYS be risking a recurrence.