Grand National Weights

Last year I reckoned about 10-4, since it had been 10-5 the previous year but it ended up being 10-2.

I'll be shocked if Beefy even runs. I think bringing him over here for this race borders on cruelty. He's never run to his very best in England and to expect him to find improvement in this race is asking too much of a fine servant.
 
Desert Orchid, when has Michael Hourigan ever shown the remotest interest in the welfare of his stable stars? Remember Doran's Pride's sad demise at Cheltenham?
 
Maurice not sure if you know Bob Bob Bobbin has had a wind operation mid season after a couple of disappointing runs so something to be wary of if he comes to the National without having had a run first. Probably won't get in anyway.

Bob Bob Bobbin was my dark horse in my TTF lists this season, trying to find one horse not too many others would consider backfired a bit. :(
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Feb 12 2008, 06:00 PM
Am I wrong or isn't it the case that there are no penalties after the publication of the weights?
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No, you are right. There ain't no penalties in The Grand National.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 12 2008, 05:17 PM
Desert Orchid, when has Michael Hourigan ever shown the remotest interest in the welfare of his stable stars? Remember Doran's Pride's sad demise at Cheltenham?
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Doran's Pride's demise at Cheltenham was indeed "sad" but it occurred in the context of a race and could have happened to any horse. Yes, he was racing at a fairly advanced age but I can't see that this raised any welfare issues at all.

Perhaps I'm doing you a disservice, useful. If in fact you wrote a letter of protest to the RSPCA prior to the horse running in the 2003 Foxhunters then I apologise.
 
I hope Nicholls doesnt receive the same level of criticism if Thisthatandtother should fall and dies in this years foxhunters. (hopefully not, touch wood)

It was always my assumption that the owner would have the final say on whether a horse is retired or not.
 
From an exchange on here from 2006, on older horses and esp DORAN'S PRIDE:

Posted by myself:

<< I was reading an old thread last night about horses which should be retired. When they are running with as much enthusiasm as 14 year old Mr Dow Jones who won today at Stratford with ears pricked, you have to trust the connections to some extent. Earthmover was retired at the right time imo, when he just looked to have had enough; he only raced 3 times in 05 after being brought down in the 04 Hunter-Chaser finals won by Torduff Espress, and had a win and place from those 3 runs.

There was a lot about Doran's Pride who was killed at Cheltenham in the 2003 Foxhunters'. I remember being appalled he was racing at 14 and feeling very angry with Hourigan; then I read a long horse obit piece in the Telegraph by Brough Scott who pointed out that the horse HAD been retired and had moped in his field, utterly miserable. As soon as he was brought back to the yard and put into training he perked up immediately, and raced with more enthusiasm than ever >>

Reply from Trudi

<< Milli (my 2nd babe!!) [Milligan] was going great till he hit one - he nicked the veins on the inside of his thighs, but hes fine - though there was a lot of blood and it looked very exciting!!
All our older horses thrive on their racing - Batty [Blazing Batman] is still loving it - Happy [happy Hiussar] is jumping out of his skin - goodness only knows how he will cope when he retires - he's going to have to be a very active pensioner!! You have to trust horses to let you know when enough is enough, and the connections to do right by them - IMO theres nothing worse than these horses being left festering in a field when they want to work. >>
 
Originally posted by Bobbyjo@Feb 12 2008, 02:16 AM
I was taken by the Tom Mullins quote that Chelsea Harbour may never be rated this low again which was somewhat odd. They've even given him a Gold Cup entry. Strikes me as a horse they've aimed quite high with so he must show them a fair bit at home. He's been well punted in a few races too and hasn't delivered though so I wonder about him...
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Personally, I wouldn't pay much heed to anything Tom Mullins says myself. Has been plenty of money around for him on a couple of occassions this season though.
 
Did Doran's have to be campaigned in such a competitive sphere? Could he not have gone hunting regularly? The O'Leary's and Mullins rightly retired the great Florida Pearl, and never entertained risking him in something like the National, or ther most competitive amateur riders race in the calendar.

My point about Doran's is to answer the question that the poster posed re: Beef Or Salmon.

Gus, don't be so flippant (though this is becoming typical of you). I watched with horror as Doran's had to be put down that day, and have felt very aggrieved about it since. He had given so much to that yard, the least they could have done was given him a happy retirement.
 
Well done for completely ignoring the valid points about Doran's Pride's abortive retirement Useful. FWIW he won two PTP's easily and was a very good second in the big Hunter Chase at Leopardstown before going to Cheltenham. If he was struggling to keep up and took a heavy fall then your criticism would be justified but he fell when disputing the lead at an early stage. It was simply one of those things and was in no way related to his age or indeed the esteem in which he was held by connections.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 13 2008, 10:26 AM
Did Doran's have to be campaigned in such a competitive sphere? Could he not have gone hunting regularly? The O'Leary's and Mullins rightly retired the great Florida Pearl, and never entertained risking him in something like the National, or ther most competitive amateur riders race in the calendar.

My point about Doran's is to answer the question that the poster posed re: Beef Or Salmon.

Gus, don't be so flippant (though this is becoming typical of you). I watched with horror as Doran's had to be put down that day, and have felt very aggrieved about it since. He had given so much to that yard, the least they could have done was given him a happy retirement.
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Nobody in fact asked a question about Beef Or Salmon.

I am not being flippant.

If you have a problem with fourteen-year-old horses being asked to race, whether in Hunter Chase or open company, why aren't you campaiging for it to be stopped? Two such horses ran at Folkestone yesterday, one in a Hunters' and one in an ordinary handicap. Another runs this afternoon in a Hunters' Chase. Why aren't you suggesting their trainers aren't showing the "remotest interest" in their "welfare"? Where do you stand on the campaigning of Adamant Approach, still being asked to race regularly in very competitive hurdles at the age of fourteen?

What is it about Doran's Pride that is different? If it's that he'd been a good horse then that's irrelevant, for me. If it's that he died, then you're being wise after the event.
 
Desert Orchid said "I'll be shocked if Beefy even runs. I think bringing him over here for this race borders on cruelty. "

I responded by suggesting Hourigan's interests in the welfare of his horses didn't stop him running Doran's Pride in the Foxhunters.

The Foxhunters at Cheltenham is a far cry from slowly run affairs at Folkestone.

Doran's had given his all in the highest level for years, and if he had to be put back in training at least some thought should have been given to his welfare. He proved at Leopardstown before the Cheltenham race that he wasn't up to competing with a horse like Sheltering who would finish 30 lengths adrift of Kingscliff.

If a horse is capable of running to a certain level at 14 years of age, and holds his form at that level then fine. As is the case with Adamant Approach.

I think from a public's perspective, running an old favourite like Doran's Pride in a hotly contested Foxhunters (the eventual winner Kingscliff became a serous Godl Cup contender the following season) was always going to be a problem. The tragic death of the horse led many to think Hourigan and connections used him in vein pursuit of festival glory rather than keeping him to less competitive pursuits.

Rory I didn't ignore the explanation about him not being happy in a field. I actually suggested hunting him could have been his main post retirement pursuit rather than racing in a very compltitive sphere.

Am I being wise after the event? Well, on the line through Sheltering Dorans would have finished some 40+ lengths adrift even if he had finished. Would that have been a fitting end for such a great, much loved animal? Personally I don't think so, and Hourigan didn't cover himself in glory that day. To me it smacked of a man so desperate for Cheltenham festival succcess that he tried to summon one last effort from poor old Doran's - with tragic consequences.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 13 2008, 07:13 PM
Am I being wise after the event? Well, on the line through Sheltering Dorans would have finished some 40+ lengths adrift even if he had finished. Would that have been a fitting end for such a great, much loved animal? Personally I don't think so, and Hourigan didn't cover himself in glory that day. To me it smacked of a man so desperate for Cheltenham festival succcess that he tried to summon one last effort from poor old Doran's - with tragic consequences.
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Can you remember who finished third that day useful? That collateral form rather throws your argument on its head
 
Erm, Sheltering beat Doran's by 10 lengths, and was beaten 30 lengths by Kingscliff - by my reckoning that means Doran's could have expected to finish no nearer than 40 lengths away. Joe Blake was third. What is your point?

Anyway, the debate is not about the finer points of form lines. It is about whether or not former Grade 1 gladiators deserve something better than being sent into battle in fiercely competitive races that often include young unexposed animals (such as Kingscliff) at the age of 14.
 
I tried to find the piece about Doran's Pride on the Telegraph website as it was quite long and very moving, but it's come down now.

Brough Scott loved the horse, had ridden himself more than once [not sure if in a race but certainly on the gallops]. The whole point of the piece is, that Doran's WANTED to be a racehorse. He loved it. He wasn't happy doing anything else - so there could NEVER be a happy retirement for him. Any other life depressed him and made him 'mean'

Some horses are like that. Sir Peter O'Sullevan paid to keep Attivo in the yard when he was retired - he was kept up in the daily routine of a racehorse because he loved that - and sulked if taken away for to anything else. Hated a field. Fred Winter used to say the same - how sad it made him when some old warriors were just left in a field, getting bored and depressed.

Good racehorses love to race - that's what is in their genes and their memory. Let it be.
 
So it is basically the fact that he'd been a good horse, then, useful.

It's irrelevant as far as I'm concerned but you're entitled to your opinion.
 
I take on board what you say HS, but I go back to my point - what is it the horse misses? The regular routine of being in a yard? The gallops? The companionship of the human and equine colleagues?

Can't a grand old campaigner have all that, and be sent out hunting during the season?

Do they have to be put under the immense pressure of the foxhunters at Cheltenham?

In repsonse to the point about Thisthatandtother, this horse has never been taken out of training, and was capable of running up to within 4 lbs of his career high mark last February. It was almost 4 years since Doran's Pride had run within 4lbs of his career high mark when he contested the Foxhunters.
 
Stop trying to trap me Gus.

Horse are entitled to run for as long as their legs will allow them, provided they are not being abused in anyway, and they are being run in grades that will not place undue strain on their jumping ability or heart, potentially causing death by heart failure of limb breakage.

I am not saying a horse who hasn't had a career in Grade 1 chases deserves to be "flogged" around the track even if he is too old to cope with the rigours of the sport.

I am saying that Doran's Pride owed nobody anything. He was campaigned at the top flight and endured some gruelling battles, including 6 Grade 1s at Cheltenham.

He had a lot of miles on the clock and Hourigan seemed hell bent on running him anywhere and everywhere the older he got.

Considering the longevity and attritional nature of his career prior to his final season, it was too much a risk to place on his old limbs, expecting him to climb that Cheltenham hill one final time.

You clearly have no emotion when it comes to the horses who often sacrifice their lives for your enjoyment. A pity really.
 
Originally posted by useful@Feb 13 2008, 05:35 PM
Anyway, the debate is not about the finer points of form lines. It is about whether or not former Grade 1 gladiators deserve something better than being sent into battle in fiercely competitive races
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I'm not trying to trap you.

The above is what you yourself said.

And you know nothing about my emotions.
 
So gus, what is your point?

You have decided that what I have said can only be substantiated by me also saying that all horses MUST be retired when they reach 14. I don't believe this to be the case and I have made my points clearly.

Tell me this. Do you agree that Doran's Pride probably ran to a mark of about 109 when runner up to Sheltering at Leopardstown? If you agree, do you still think it was prudent to send a horse to Cheltenham for the most competitive amateur race on the calendar having only been able to muster a performance 58 lbs lower than his career high mark and some 38 lbs lower than his most recent run in a handicap a year earlier?

His decline was palpable. In my opinion the connections put Cheltenham Glory ahead of the horse's welfare. And it backfired on them in a very tragic way.

The horse's final moments were in agony and distress in front of a huge crowd of people, the vast majority of whom seemd to have no concern for the animal's state. They all cheered home their respective selections as the poor animal lay sticken behind green screens.

I repeat my earlier point. The horse may well have become depressed in a field. However, there are ways of remedying this that needn't have involved sending him to the Cheltenham cauldron.

I would be intrigued to know if Hourigan charged Doran normal training fees in the the horse's final season. Why could he not have offered the horse a place in the yard to work with the other horses, but simply not risked his life competitively? And, as I have said twice already, hunted him? Surely that would have relieved the depression to a sufficient level?
 
Without meaning to jinx the horse, of any horse that has faced the Grand national fences for the first time over the years, surely Beef or Salmon is the least likely to come to any harm. Not risk free, but that is mainly because there are less suitable horses than BoS competing in it.

I personally would have no problem with BoS running. I would expect him to either refuse early on or be competitive, probably the former. His alternative is the Irish National, I can't say that he would be any safer running there.
 
Melenzez. surely the Aintree fences are a far stiffer test that Fairyhouse?

Do you not think Hourigan would be better off retiring the horse in one piece rather than risking him at Aintree, in the same way Mullins retired Florida Pearl at 12? He has won 10 Grade 1s, is unlikely ever to reach that level again, and owes nobody anything. I imagine Mullins/O'Leary had Florida Pearl's wellbeing uppermost in their minds when retiring Florida Pearl - why can Hourigan not do the same?
 
Many of the fatalities, I would have thought, at Aintree are from horses overjumping fences and crumpling on landing. Beef or Salmon just doesn't do overjumping. If you hit a fence at Aintree it comes with you, at Fairyhouse you bounce back off it. Maybe they have changed things recently, I haven't really noticed, but Fairyhouse has a reputation for building highly unforgiving fences.
 
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