Kauto Star Or Denman

Kauto or Debman

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Firstly, re Harry Findlay: I was disappointed with his immediate post-race interview. I often think catching people immediately after a race is the time to see what they really think. I thought he was ruthless in his attitude towards Kauto Star and didn't seem to realise that the horse had under-performed. I wouldn't trust the man to buy me a drink, based on that interview.

Also, Ruby Walsh's immediate reaction was to say Kauto was beaten before half-way. Given that the pace for the first circuit wasn't that fast, he couldn't have been taken out of his comfort zone at that stage. I couldn't believe he'd finish second at the top of the hill unless Neptune fell in a heap.

It was a super performance from the winner and I still believe Thomas went a fence too soon. At least we now know Denman has a limit, albeit very high but if they ever meet again I will be fascinated to see which one Ruby picks. The way Kauto plugged on on a day when little was going right for him suggests to me that he can take Denman when both are in peak form.

Interesting comment too this morning from Francome. He reckoned Master Minded would win the Champion Hurdle. So do I.
 
Exotic Dancer running to form is not 32l behind Kauto Star. In no way can his gold cup run be seen as him running to form. I think Halcon would have won if there was another 2f to run. The amount of ground he made up from the second last was amazing. Dont think he holds down the form, he got so close becuase Denman went so hard from the top of the hill and before.

Kauto Star stayed well, so much so that Ruby thought he still had a chance of winning coming to the last. I thought Denman was knackered at this stage, but this of course can be excused as he put the race to bed the 4f before the straight, rather than expending his energy up the straight. Not a sign that he doesnt stay as such. I think he had a very hard race. It is a gold cup after all.

Kauto Star ploughed through the last, not unlike like last year, with Ruby getting completely unbalanced and almost coming out the side door. Whatever miniscule chance he had, practically zero, ended there.

Denman didnt outstay Kauto Star, he outjumped him.
 
I'm not saying Denman outstayed KS, I was saying I disagree with the idea that KS outstayed Denman. Yes, Denman outjumped, and out-galloped, the rest of the field.

I fully appreciate Exotic Dancer has had his problems - the point I was trying to make was that I believe it is folly to crab the form by saying "such and such" holds the form down by finishing so close, not least when both horses had close to their optimum favoured conditions so were entitled to run big races. You could just as easily use ED to boost the form if you so wished, which is pretty much what I meant.
 
Using Exotic Dancer to hold up the form is more wrong.

I for one haven't use any horse to hold down the form, I just dont think that KS was right yesterday. Just never traveled.
 
Originally posted by Desert Orchid@Mar 15 2008, 11:28 AM
Firstly, re Harry Findlay: I was disappointed with his immediate post-race interview. I often think catching people immediately after a race is the time to see what they really think. I thought he was ruthless in his attitude towards Kauto Star and didn't seem to realise that the horse had under-performed. I wouldn't trust the man to buy me a drink, based on that interview.
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I usually agree with you, Des but I am not having this at all.

I think he was emotional, but he was clearly fecked off by people saying that he would throw the race for the good of the stable and Kauto's bonus.

He was just trying to say that he knew they had to grind Kauto into the ground to beat him. Re: Findlay not realising Kauto underperformed, I think that is understandable. It was straight after the race, and Kauto did come second, after all. In fact many on here don't accept that Kauto underperformed, and they don't own the winner.
 
I'm not using Exotic Dancer to rate the form, I'm pointing out that someone could do, if they so wished. In the same way that people are using NC and HG to crab it (not saying you are, Garney, but others are appearing to).
 
Originally posted by Bar the Bull+Mar 15 2008, 12:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bar the Bull @ Mar 15 2008, 12:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Desert Orchid@Mar 15 2008, 11:28 AM
Firstly, re Harry Findlay: I was disappointed with his immediate post-race interview. I often think catching people immediately after a race is the time to see what they really think. I thought he was ruthless in his attitude towards Kauto Star and didn't seem to realise that the horse had under-performed. I wouldn't trust the man to buy me a drink, based on that interview.
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I usually agree with you, Des but I am not having this at all.

I think he was emotional, but he was clearly fecked off by people saying that he would throw the race for the good of the stable and Kauto's bonus.

He was just trying to say that he knew they had to grind Kauto into the ground to beat him. Re: Findlay not realising Kauto underperformed, I think that is understandable. It was straight after the race, and Kauto did come second, after all. In fact many on here don't accept that Kauto underperformed, and they don't own the winner. [/b][/quote]
Since when did you ever agree with me, Bar??

I should put this into context. I don't get the chance to follow racing on a day-to-day basis so had no idea about those kinds of tensions building. I'd have liked to have seen a degree of magnanimity from Mr Findlay. "We broke Kauto's heart!" sounded like a bit of a boast - which might not even be true - and I can't imagine Clive Smith gloating over a defeat of a rival in such a manner.
 
Agree with a few of the comments on here but think if you ran the race in say 6 weeks the result may be reversed. They are both outstanding horses without doubt but if Ruby said that he knew he wasn't going to win after a circuit you have to think/feel that KS didn't show his true running.Garney as hit the nail on the head,KS just got outjumped yesterday.

Exotic Dancers interupted preparation obviously didn't help & he still hasn't beaten KS & I think he never will.
 
I tend to agree with you, DO - I'm glad for all DENMAN's connections that he won and it seems mean to crab anyone's victory speech but maybe HF could have picked his words a little more carefully. No true horse lover would ever want to 'break' the heart of any other horse, let alone a really good horse such as KAUTO STAR.

I was also amused to see the horse is in his wife's name - did anyone interview her? I didn't watch all the coverage so probably missed it....... :laughing:
 
I think we need to be looking at what Neptune does in future to put a real mark on the race..purely from a ratings perspective....of course you could use the clock :P

I actually didn't think KS stayed...which I was surprised at of course...after the last he was really struggling to hold on to 2nd... Neptune who was coming back at him...suggesting KS was stopping....once KS had headed Neptune I would not have expected Neptune to be able to come at him again unless KS was running out of stamina.

I was actually disappointed in the race in that it wasn't the neck and neck fight many thought it would be...Denman won so easily it removed that aspect...but in winning in that way against a horse we thought was a complete machine...makes this the best Gold since Arkle...imho.

We've seen two very special races this week.
 
I knew form the 2nd or 3rd fence when Kauto put in a short one that he wasn't going to win, and he jumped pretty sketchily from very early on, so imo the writing was on the wall early doors that it wasn't going to be his day.

Denman on the other hand jumped superbly and didn't mind the sticky ground, which didn't suit KS at all. They didn't go that fast early on and KS was making mistakes and misjudging his stride well before the pace put him under any pressure.

You can't use ED as any kind of yardstick this season - he just hasn't been the same horse as last year. I wrote on here months ago that Neptune C was a vastly improved horse this season, and Fitz gave him a superb ride yesterday. Halcon too is a much stronger horse this year.

But essentially, KS ran like a handicapper on the day and not like a GC/KG winner - which we know he is - and we never got the duel up the strait we were all longing for... KS didn't by any stretch of the imagination run up to his best - never mind timings, you could see that just visually - he was losing ground at most of his fences, something he's hardly ever done before.

None of which is to say Denman wouldn't have won even under ideal conditions; but my feeling is that the relative superiority of the two is still unclear.
 
Originally posted by Songsheet@Mar 15 2008, 12:40 PM

I was also amused to see the horse is in his wife's name - did anyone interview her? I didn't watch all the coverage so probably missed it....... :laughing:
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It's not the wife, it's the mother!

Findlay is usually very entertaining, and in general a 'good thing', but sometimes his vulgarity does get t bit ott, and sadly in the emotion of the moment yesterday was an instance. I don't like hearing about 'breaking horses' hearts' either
 
Originally posted by Headstrong@Mar 15 2008, 01:21 PM


None of which is to say Denman wouldn't have won even under ideal conditions; but my feeling is that the relative superiority of the two is still unclear.
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Absolutely. The question is what course/going/distance would see a totally fair test. I`m thinking the Betfair Chase over 3 miles on GS (but not tacky)
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Mar 14 2008, 11:54 PM
Didn't see the post-race guff tbh - was in the middle of the track. It has to be said that Harry seemed to be getting very nervous before the race though. He's a very good bloke, genuine, and the sort of owner of a high profile horse that racing needs to get more publicity.
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Spot on. I didn't warm to him initially, but then I didn't warm to Jim Lewis either, and it took me some time to realise he was a fundamentally decent person. Jump racing needs larger than life characters and Findlay is good in that respect. I took a straw poll of people in the pub on Thursday in an attempt to find out how many people actually knew the Gold Cupwas on, and who the principals were. Only about 50% could name the horses. This should have been on the cusp of every sports fans lips. I wrote something a few months ago about this golden opportunity to publicise the sport, and suggested the industry would screw up its potential. My crude poll tells me they did
 
Originally posted by Warbler@Mar 15 2008, 02:11 PM

I took a straw poll of people in the pub on Thursday in an attempt to find out how many people actually knew the Gold Cupwas on, and who the principals were. Only about 50% could name the horses. This should have been on the cusp of every sports fans lips. I wrote something a few months ago about this golden opportunity to publicise the sport, and suggested the industry would screw up its potential. My crude poll tells me they did
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Sports fans in pub - that`s a gathering of minds isn`t it - most of the thick feckers can`t get past the football. What else could the industry do? It was covered ok by the papers, but then you`ve got radio and TV news putting the fucking cricket (England against NZ i ask you - talk about watching paint dry)
ahead of the Festival.
 
Originally posted by Tout Seul@Mar 14 2008, 03:58 PM
Enjoy the night,Miller.
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...I'm back, tired, emotional, very happy and oh so right... had to leave some of the cash behind :)
 
Originally posted by Gareth Flynn@Mar 14 2008, 03:50 PM
"Only" somewhere in the mid 180s for me.

Ha, only!

God we're spoiled.

SteveM was 100% spot on. Well done, Sir.
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Bless you Gareth. We get too close to it sometimes. I knew he was right for it round here.
 
Firstly well done to everyone who tipped up Denman, on the day clearly the best horse. Super horse, wonderful fluid jumper.

But what I think this thread shows me is how under rated Kauto Star is. How on earth he can simply be "a couple of pounds below his best" is just beyond me. The horse was off the bridle before the top of the hill, he never travelled a yard on the second circuit which lead to numerous errors.

Take out Kauto Star and Denman beat Neptune Collonges all out with absolutely everything in his favour...soft ground, stiff track, a nice lead, 3m2f etc by 7 lenghts and that gets him a rating of 185/186? Neptune Collonges is the horse that has failed to perform around Cheltenham before with his trainer stating he prefers flat tracks. Now we are to believe the horse has improved 11 pounds plus on all previous form?To me this is very much giving a rating to a horse based on the race title.....Denman might well be capable of hitting those marks but I find it absolutely remarkable that he is being given such a mark.

I really don't want this to sound like sour grapes (I fear it will) but Denman (after Newbury) clearly became a "public horse" something Kauto Star for whatever reason has not being able to achieve.
 
But if you are into "taking out"horses if you take out Denman then Kauto, Exotic Halcyon etc were very much like last year and Neptune is no slouch.
Last years Gold Cup field was in my opinion, crap.
L'ami, State of Play, Turpin Green etc all downgrade horses and Exotic who was a Handicapper last year running his usual solid race.
Kauto made a serious error per race last year, the Gold Cup last fence wasn't clever.
He met his first serious challenge yesterday and failed.
 
I understand how you must feel Aidan. But I reckon the public had more than a little to do with pouring money onto Kauto Star (who I have always said cannot produce his best at Cheltenham, particularly when put under pressure), leaving some of us to gratefully mop up the 9/4 against on Denman. On another course Kauto might well give Denman a run for his money, but not here.
 
Cold light of day, having re-watched the race several times:

Kauto Star ran flat. I think that is clear. It compromised his jumping and led to him being beaten a long, long way from home.

Denman fans who think that the difference in ability between the two horses was enough to have him beat that far out are deluding themselves.

The reason for Kauto running below form we can only theorise; long season, ground, track, bug who knows?

SteveM was right in that the conditions meant that Denman was able to perform to a better level than Kauto Star. Well done sir.

If we are lucky enough to see these two clash again, then I suspect that people who are using this result to believe that Denman is the better horse are in for a shock.

That is my opinion and that is what this game is all about. I have been wrong before, most recently in yesterday's Gold Cup.
 
I've always said I might well favour Kauto against Denman on another course (although I'm not quite so sure about that after yesterday) and I agree with what you have just said.

At Cheltenham, however, I'm adamant that Kauto could not beat Denman on his best day (assuming it was Denman's best day too).
 
He met his first serious challenge yesterday and failed.
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Yes...he never faced anything as good as Neptune Collonges before...

What is it about Cheltenham Steve that you feel does not suit the horse? He was beaten long before stamina was an issue.
 
Walsh had to put him in the race far far earlier than he normally would have done so he used his finishing effort to get on terms - which he almost did before the last fence.

KS is like a better version of Florida Pearl and One Man - he won a Gold Cup because his class advantage over the others was greater.
 
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