Kauto Star Or Denman

Kauto or Debman

  • Total voters
    1
KAUTO STAR IS STILL THE BETTER LOOKING OF THE TWO!

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BUT HE WAS BEATEN BY A BETTER HORSE TODAY!!! WELL DONE, DENMAN!!

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Ho Ho Ho. Hey, some people will never believe even if you tell them till you are blue in the face.

Not the flat track bully you've been proclaiming Denman as, Ardross? You might want to tell your little mate that he's no one paced plodder, either. Still, I've been trying to tell you both as much for months now.....
 
Originally posted by Flagship uberalles+Mar 14 2008, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flagship uberalles @ Mar 14 2008, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Euronymous@Mar 14 2008, 04:00 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Flagship uberalles
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@Mar 14 2008, 03:57 PM

Bung them both in the Henessey next year, no need to worry about weights as nothing else will bother to turn up.
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Classic.
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Please name me some horses that will actually be in the handicap and are therefore likely to turn up let alone have a decent chance.

Not exactly an awful lot of 165+ horses at 3m 2f out there at the minute, are there?

I'll start you off: Exotic Dancer and Neptunes Collonges. [/b][/quote]
I wasn`t having a go, it just made me laugh because it`s true.

I can`t have Master Minded as higher rated.
 
Originally posted by Bar the Bull@Mar 14 2008, 09:54 PM
There were two people talking on Newstalk this evening.

One wanted to know if Denman would be the new Best Mate. The other said, "no way. There can only ever be one Best Mate. We thought Kauto Star would be the next Best Mate and look what happened to him."
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It amazes me that some people can follow racing for year after year and still not have the first fucking clue about the game.
 
The amount of people who know nothing about racing that are asked for opinions on cheltenham is amazing. Dont know if its the same in England as in Ireland. On tuesday morning, the sports reporter on Today FM tipped Iktitaf for the Champion Hurdle.
 
Strange you should say that Garney - I spoke to someone today who admitted he knows nothing about racing yet he'd had £15k on Denman to win. After speaking to him about the race he said he might press up to £20k!
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Mar 14 2008, 11:40 PM
Strange you should say that Garney - I spoke to someone today who admitted he knows nothing about racing yet he'd had £15k on Denman to win. After speaking to him about the race he said he might press up to £20k!
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And where did you come across Harry Findlay, Shads? :D
 
Seriously, I thought Findlay was very gracious in victory today. I feared he would become completely unbearable to be quite honest. Fair play to the guy.
 
Didn't see the post-race guff tbh - was in the middle of the track. It has to be said that Harry seemed to be getting very nervous before the race though. He's a very good bloke, genuine, and the sort of owner of a high profile horse that racing needs to get more publicity.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Mar 14 2008, 10:54 PM
Didn't see the post-race guff tbh - was in the middle of the track. It has to be said that Harry seemed to be getting very nervous before the race though. He's a very good bloke, genuine, and the sort of owner of a high profile horse that racing needs to get more publicity.
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Did you see that "Holding court" thing Racing UK did with Findlay? I watch racing channels all day every day and to be honest I drift in and out of it these days, listening to bits then do a bit of work, listen to a bit more. I can't remember when i was last so interested in anything anyone had to say about racing and gambling in general. I was transfixed. It was just so great to hear someone so clearly knowledgeable and more importantly utterly passionate about the game. I am in no doubt there will have been just as many who would have found the interview annoying and self-indulgent, but I think the man is a breath of fresh air.
 
I didn't see it Ricko, no - I was at the track from around 10am. I agree though - Harry can only be good for racing; he's a breath of fresh air and is clearly passionate about the game and his horses as well as being a good bloke to boot.
 
Just looking back at the race again, I can't have it that Kauto Star ran to his best to be honest. The time and effort it took him to pick up Neptune Collanges from four out (even though that one probably put in a career best) is what does it for me. Why he didn't run to his best I honestly couldn't tell you. Perhaps it was that Denman took him out of his "comfort zone", I just don't know.

His jumping was on shakey ground from fairly early on, when he made a hash of the two fences in the straight the first time round. From then on, he didn't jump with any fluency at all, and his jumping really went to pot when push came to shove.

Denman really is a joy to watch though. Fantastic jumper and a lot quicker than some give him credit for. A real credit to all involved.
 
The relentless pressure that Denman put on Kauto today will have clearly been a mitigating factor in him not running to his best. Ruby is used to sitting in behind knowing he is going the best and is on the best horse, nice and relaxed and waiting to pounce. Today it would have been clear from a long way out that there was an absolute machine in front of him (probably as early as when they left the stable) and that feeling no doubt transferred to the horse. The pressure was on from a long way out and I think Denman (and Thomas) deserve credit for causing the Champion to run slightly below his very best.
 
I keep asking myself why are people saying KS has run below par when all the evidence suggest otherwise


I read in formbook, it says Denman demolishes Hennesey field in a canter carrying top weight, Top class effort. 182+ Neptune Colllonges demolishes a field at Wincanton carrying top weight, Top class effort, 173+ Halcon Generlardais just gets touched off in Welsh National carrying top weight. Top class effort, 171



Denman runs same CD around 15 secs quicker than a 125 rated horse, Kauto Star runs that same CD around 14 secs quicker than the 125 rated horse



What am i missing?????
 
Kauto Star is pushed along to challenge between the last two and passes Neptune Collonges, last years runner up Exotic Dancer is beaten out of site back in third with the rest knowhere. Kauto Star is running up to the line as the crowd cheer the back to back Gold Cup winner who has beaten last years horses despite NOT TRAVELLING OR BEING RIGHT ON THE DAY.......Wait!! Who's that Bulldozer out clear?

The Champion Denman :clap:
 
Originally posted by Charlie D@Mar 15 2008, 01:47 AM
I keep asking myself why are people saying KS has run below par when all the evidence suggest otherwise


I read in formbook, it says Denman demolishes Hennesey field in a canter carrying top weight, Top class effort. 182+ Neptune Colllonges demolishes a field at Wincanton carrying top weight, Top class effort, 173+ Halcon Generlardais just gets touched off in Welsh National carrying top weight. Top class effort, 171



Denman runs same CD around 15 secs quicker than a 125 rated horse, Kauto Star runs that same CD around 14 secs quicker than the 125 rated horse



What am i missing?????
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doesnt the proximity of Halcon generlardais and Neptune Collonges suggest that Kauto Star ran at least a few pounds below his best. Halcon Generlardais made up some amount of ground from the turn.
 
Garney

he may have run a couple pounds below his best if you rate him a 184 horse, but i get impression people seem to think he ran a lot more than a couple of pounds below his best and there is no evidence for this because of the proximity to Halcon Generaldais and Neptunes Collognes


HG would have been a lot closer to Kauto, NC would have been a fair few lengths in front of Kauto and Denman would have beaten Kauton by more than any 7 lengths if he ran that bad


Charlie D

Kauto running 177 ( Haydock run)

I had NC on 173+ (Winc Run) bit of improvement

I had HG on 171 ( Chepstow run) probably over-rated a couple of pounds



Does seem to fit nicely don't it and 184/5 for Denman looks about right Denisco
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When i include time analysis to the above, it raises Denman from 184/185 to 188, at 1lb per length, thats Kauto running 181, NC running 181, improving 8lbs and HG running 172, improving 1lb


Is this so hard to believe ???? Kauto Star has posted similar figures to the above on similar ground and jumping similar to what he did yesterday
 
I have woken up this morning still unsatisfied. (Happily, Mrs AC will not be having the same problem.)

There was something wrong with the race and Kathy has put her finger on it.

Denman deserved that win 100%! It was a days racing I will NEVER forget. The hype was right. A battle of two brilliant, talented horses and I think the better horse won on the day.
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Thats exactly right. But the second of the two was not Kauto Star, it was Neptune Collonges. Neptune was the one that made the race, KS was a bit player, who jumped badly and stayed on at the finish to contest second.

Then we have the problem of rating KS when NC was so close. But then he ran better than form with ED.

I wanted KS to be length behind Denman at the last with the rest 20L back. After that I didn't care what happend.
 
I have the height for respect for Neptune COllonges and expected him to finish a good third today. However, it was clear from a mile from home that this wasnt the kauto star that impressed so much for most of the last two years. Raters will tell you that he ran one of his best races vs Monet's Garden at Aintree this year, but to me, yesterday's race was like that, on possibly similarly tacky ground. He made mistakes at several fences, not huge ones, but where he wasnt fluent. For a horse that won a Tingle Creek and Grade 1 over 2m4f last time out and looked all speed twice at Kempton, I dont believe that Denman is quick enough to get him off the bridle that early in a race when Kauto Star is firing.

I dont find it hard to believe that Denman could have beaten Kauto Star. Far from it. He is very capable of doing so. He may have ground him down from the top of hill with his huge stride, even with KS at his best. I was slightly disappointed with the contest, as I felt the race was done and dusted from a mile out, if not before. And while raters might say that KS ran his race at Aintree and at Cheltenham this year, my eyes tell me that it wasnt him at his best, and it was his guts and willingness that got him second. I dont do my own ratings but my guestimate is that he was maybe a couple of pounds behind last years GC effort, and about 5-6 lbs down on his best. It would put Denman's performance yesterday on a par with KS. Very little between them.

This is not to knock Denman's win, and while it was probably the best gold cup performance since Arkle, I think its premature for analysts to be declaring him the best since Arkle just yet. He probably isnt even the most talented in his yard. Wonder if Findlay is still eyeing next years National. Great to see a horse campaigned in this way, and we might have the first gold cup winner to contest a hennessey in a generation.
 
Kauto Star like all horses has his optimum conditions, and 3M2F on a stiff track on ground with cut isn`t it. But take Denman out of yesterdays race and KS would still have pissed it.

For next season I`d love to see KS take Master Minded on over 2M4F and Denman to tackle the Hennessey again.
 
I think Kauto put to bed the doubts about his staying. He stayed better than Denman. His jumping was just far too stuttery on the day.
 
I really don't think it can be said that Kauto stayed better than Denman - although he started to gain on him he couldn't get any closer to him to close the gap from the last onwards. It is only natural for a horse that has been out in front that long to dwindle a bit - and he still slaughtered them.

Interesting vein of thought that KS wasn't at his best - that's as maybe but I still don't think he would have beaten Denman - he murdered them. I also find it interesting that the proximity of Neptune Collonges is using to hold the form down - could it just be that this horse is improving? Don't forget he's a stayer and he had ground conditions to suit so he was entitled to improve a little on that. Also what of Exotic Dancer? It could possibly be argued that where he finished behind Kauto Star was pretty much what might have been expected on known formlines, ergo the form may well be fairly accurate, more so for the conditions under which the race was won. Halcon Genelardais is another being used to hold down the form - again, he is a known stayer for whom conditions would have suited well. He also runs well fresh and purposely hadn't been seen since Christmas.
 
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