Kauto Star Or Denman

Kauto or Debman

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I hate to point out the bloody obvious in that the ground was riding close to soft therefore of course they were going to run slower than the standard times.

I just don't geddit - for months now a handful of us have been fighting Denman's corner; saying he would win the Gold Cup by putting them to the sword early so they couldn't get to him - it happens as predicted yet all that can be harped on about is that KS clearly didn't run his race (granted, I think there is some truth in that but I still think on this track in these conditions he still wouldn't have won) so the form is being crabbed. Well I'm sorry, but I was under the belief that the horse that won the Gold Cup was the one that passed the post in front on the day, not the one that might have beaten the winner had conditions been more favourable and had he not run so badly under par [allegedly].

FWIW I tend to kind of agree with SteveM in that I am starting to think that the main reason KS jumped badly was that he was taken out of his comfort zone jumping at the speed they went - and before anyone comes out with the Tingle Creek let us not forget that until very recently [ie when travelling easily within himself and at a sedate pace] KS was not able to run a race without making horrendous jumping errors every time and was lucky to get away with them (bar the QM that year when he was claimed).

The best horse won on the day - get over it, basically!
 
You think Kauto Star was out of his "comfort zone" by the second fence when Neptune Collonges was leading?

As for Kauto Star's past mistakes...the mistakes he made were completely different to the errors he made yesterday and you know that yourself SL. From the word go, even on the first circuit when Denman did not lead or force the pace, Kauto Star was making mistakes at his fences and generally making a poor shape over the vast majority of the obstacles.

I fully accept Denman was the best horse on the day, the result makes that pretty clear and there is not a single person disputing that.

What I am disputing is the inflated rating given to Denman on the back of this win and the much lower level of form displayed by Kauto Star today.

Kauto Star gets 182 or something but beating Our Vic on the bridle without breaking sweat yet Denman gets 185 for an all out defeat off Neptune Collonges on very tiring ground....
 
I think if Denman wasn't in the field, I think Kauto Star would have run exactly the same way, been far less than impressive, and would have scrambled home by a head to beat Neptune Collonges and Halcon Genelardais.

I dont think anyone has claimed that Kauto Star is the better horse, I just think that the mouthwatering clash that people were hoping for didnt materialise. Denman fans seem to think that this is because of Denman's performance, I think its because Kauto Star wasnt at his best.

I would have hoped that we would have seen the Kauto Star of Haydock, Sandown, or Ascot do battle with Denman, what we got IMO is the Kauto Star from Aintree. Scratchy over his jumps, no spring in his jump, not carrying Ruby into the race. Denman might welll have been good enough to beat whatever Kauto Star had to offer, but I really cant see how people think this was Kauto Star's true form.

I honestly get the feeling that Nicholls still thinks that Kauto Star is the superior animal. Rightly or wrongly. I'm not so sure myself, but I dont think it was conclusively proven that Denman is superior yesterday.
 
Originally posted by Shadow Leader@Mar 15 2008, 11:14 PM
I just don't geddit - for months now a handful of us have been fighting Denman's corner; saying he would win the Gold Cup by putting them to the sword early so they couldn't get to him - it happens as predicted yet all that can be harped on about is that KS clearly didn't run his race (granted, I think there is some truth in that but I still think on this track in these conditions he still wouldn't have won) so the form is being crabbed. Well I'm sorry, but I was under the belief that the horse that won the Gold Cup was the one that passed the post in front on the day, not the one that might have beaten the winner had conditions been more favourable and had he not run so badly under par [allegedly].
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I'm not sure anyone is arguing with that.

I think we're just saying it didn't turn out to be the 'clash of the titans' as advertised.

I still think it was a fantastic race.
 
Well found trackside!

Watching it at work with a colleague, I remarked as they turned away from the stands that I thought Kauto was beat.
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Coincidentally, I was also watching with a colleague for whom it was probably the first race she'd properly watched. As they went in front of the stands I was pointing out who was who to her, and when I pointed at Kauto she said "he doesn't look too happy, his head's going up and down like a yo-yo!".

I may point her towards Betfair's in-running service...
 
Question for Steve and SL, and anyone else who were big on Denman: are you a little bit disappointed with how he seemed to fade in the final stages? Just in terms of it suggesting he had reached his limit?
 
Originally posted by Garney@Mar 15 2008, 11:33 PM

I don't think anyone has claimed that Kauto Star is the better horse, I just think that the mouthwatering clash that people were hoping for didn't materialise. Denman fans seem to think that this is because of Denman's performance, I think its because Kauto Star wasn't at his best.
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Exactly Garney, and to say that takes nothing whatever away from Denman.

He ran a fantastic race, as he was always expected to do - by most of us anyway. But those of us who thought it would be close, can also see that KS didn't run anywhere near to his to best. To pretend otherwise is just gilding the lily - and being unfair to another very good horse

Let's not forget that KS pulled out of the racecourse stables lame after his last race. It hasn't shown up since, but something from that incident may have been bothering him yesterday, resurfacing under racing pressure as injuries often can
 
Could Kauto Star's poor jumping be put down to the 'stickiness' of the ground.

On a slightly lower level :) , Paul Moloney, who rode Enlightenment in the Grand Annual, reported that the horse couldn't get his feet out of the ground to jump a fence.

Enlightenment's and Kauto Star's jumping of the early fences was very similar, basically not getting high enough and either hitting or brushing through the top of fences.
 
I thought Kauto Star was a bit below form - he didn't jump well out of the sticky ground for me.

Denman was awesome and would have beaten an in form KS, but I don't think he is the slogger he is portrayed to be. 3 miles is his optimum trip under these conditions - maybe 3m2f on decent ground at a park track - but the idea he is a high class "Welsh National type" is misplaced.

It is a shame if we have to wait a year for the rematch. The sport has got itself on teh front pages with this clash - why not keep it there?

What about the Hennessy? Kauto would get 5lbs from Denman there - what a clash that could be???
 
I think the lack of criticism from the Racing Post on the state of the ground is further proof that the industries one paper has absolutely no interest in the well being of the sport. As useful as as a comic with a formguide. How there were no dissenting voices that the ground on the first day was officially good to soft is beyond belief. I think whatever the actual state of the ground, it will always be officially good to soft on the first day.
 
Just got back from Cheltenham so only reading this thread now for the first time.

It's going to run and run (a bit like Denman) but I just can't figure out how the KS fans can't accept Denman is quite simply the better horse.

So what if the ground is tacky? It's the same for everyone and Denman met virtually every fence perfect.

To my eyes Kauto Star jumped no differently to how he has in the past - certainly for the first two miles - it was just that in the past he's been able to get away with it. Against such a perfected jumper as Denman, every fence was a proverbial six-pointer, Denman was gaining half a length and Kauto losing half a length.

Of course Kauto didn't run up to his best... but that's because Denman created a set of circumstances that prevented the reigning champ from doing so. It's exactly the same story with the other speed horse in the race - Exotic Dancer.

I firmly believe that if Denman had not run in this year's Gold Cup we would have been hailing another 1-2 for Kauto Star over Exotic Dancer, with Neptune a gutsy third.

The difference this year is there for everyone to see. There were 10 horses in with a chance turning into the straight last year, this time there were just three with a hope from 5 out.

For me the crucial moment in the race was when Denman started to range alongside turning in on the first circuit. The tempo noticably went up a notch, Neptune responded for a few strides, but at the very next fence KS made his first proper mistake and as Thomas pushed on to the next along came another one. 100 yards later horses that had been travelling well such as Halcon Genelardais were suddenly under pressure.

Watch the Hennessy replay - exactly the same thing happens as he moves up alongside Sir Rembrandt going to the water.

I don't want to take anything away from Kauto Star. He's without doubt one of the best chasers seen since the so-called 'Golden Era' of the mid-60s. However, he's just unlucky to be around at the same time as a horse that is even better than him.

He's won well on soft ground before, so I don't buy the argument that soft didn't suit him. To be honest, given how well Denman won at last year's Festival on what appeared quicker ground I suspect he'd have won by even further had the ground been 'better'.

I too wanted to see the big head-to-head that didn't materialise, but will happily swap it for the amazing performance we witnessed instead. And generally - as backers of Exotic Dancer will know - the result tends to go the same way every time they subsequently meet.

The long and short of it is you can run the race 100 times and Denman would still win every one.
 
excellent post

you spoiled it a bit with

The long and short of it is you can run the race 100 times and Denman would still win every one.

thats nonsense really imho
 
Supporters of Denman who feel that Denman's pace forced Kauto Star into making mistakes fail to acknowledge that Kauto Star was making mistakes and looking uncomfortable before Denman got to the front. But lets just keep ignoring that!
 
After a night of celebration at the Manor Inn, with the Gold Cup taking pride of place at the head of the table, Nicholls conceded: "We will probably try to keep them apart, but there is plenty of time to think about our plans. Maybe they won't meet again.

"Denman is the champion now. His joint owner, Harry Findlay, is on about next year's Grand National, but you can't really think of that after what he did on Friday. There is only one race we want him to win next year and that's a second Gold Cup.

"Kauto Star came off second-best this time, but don't write him off. I'm not making excuses but, for whatever reason, he wasn't sparkling.

"He was wound up in his stable at Cheltenham, walking round and round. He didn't jump with his usual fluency and once he hit those two fences at the end of the first circuit I knew it was already over for him. He wasn't cruising like he usually does.

"Down the hill I thought he might be beaten 25 lengths and I was proud of the way he kept going to reduce the gap to seven lengths at the line. That showed real character.

"You've seen Kauto Star in his box this morning and he's still revved up. He looks cheesed off. He will be back and we might look at other options for him. One could be the Ryanair Chase over a shorter distance at next year's Festival. His owner, Clive Smith, is a top man and took defeat like a great sportsman."
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Originally posted by Galileo@Mar 16 2008, 10:22 AM
Supporters of Denman who feel that Denman's pace forced Kauto Star into making mistakes fail to acknowledge that Kauto Star was making mistakes and looking uncomfortable before Denman got to the front. But lets just keep ignoring that!
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He doesn`t like the course plain and simple, or jumping round it at pace anyway. They went a crawl in 2007 and he fell in 2006.
 
Originally posted by Euronymous+Mar 16 2008, 11:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Euronymous @ Mar 16 2008, 11:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Galileo@Mar 16 2008, 10:22 AM
Supporters of Denman who feel that Denman's pace forced Kauto Star into making mistakes fail to acknowledge that Kauto Star was making mistakes and looking uncomfortable before Denman got to the front. But lets just keep ignoring that!
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He doesn`t like the course plain and simple, or jumping round it at pace anyway. They went a crawl in 2007 and he fell in 2006. [/b][/quote]
He jumped perfectly in last season's Gold Cup bar the last.

Nicholls's comments are interesting about the horse being "wound up" beforehand in his box. I wonder in hindsight did the Ascot race take the edge off him.
 
I would add it would be criminal if a dual King George, and a Gold Cup winner (and runner up) lines up in the Ryanair Chase rather than the Gold Cup next season.
 
Originally posted by Galileo@Mar 16 2008, 10:22 AM
Supporters of Denman who feel that Denman's pace forced Kauto Star into making mistakes fail to acknowledge that Kauto Star was making mistakes and looking uncomfortable before Denman got to the front. But lets just keep ignoring that!
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I'm sorry I just don't see it. He jumped the second big and bold without any semblance of a mistake. That said the pace on the first circuit was quick too and when horses are jumping at a strong gallop that will bring out flaws in Kauto Star's technique that otherwise go unnoticed.

He didn't run to his best form - but that's because Denman didn't allow him to. Wherever they run, Kempton or Cheltenham, so long as Denman exerts the same superiority in terms of mid-race pace and jumping acumen I can't see how Kauto Star will beat him.
 
Presumably you think Neptune Collonges will go close to beating Kauto Star everywhere as well considering it was his "searching" pace on the first circuit that unsettled him?
 
Yes. Over a properly run three and a quarter miles I would argue that Neptune Collonges would have a strong chance of beating Kauto Star.
 
Perhaps I should slightly qualify that view! In a strongly run race with Denman in it I would expect Neptune Collonges to run up to the same form as yesterday. It's fair to say, however, that without Denman in the race Neptune might have been ridden slightly more conservatively and Kauto would have picked him off going to the last - as actually happened yesterday.
 
Originally posted by Galileo+Mar 16 2008, 10:38 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Galileo @ Mar 16 2008, 10:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by Euronymous@Mar 16 2008, 11:35 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Galileo
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@Mar 16 2008, 10:22 AM
Supporters of Denman who feel that Denman's pace forced Kauto Star into making mistakes fail to acknowledge that Kauto Star was making mistakes and looking uncomfortable before Denman got to the front. But lets just keep ignoring that!
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He doesn`t like the course plain and simple, or jumping round it at pace anyway. They went a crawl in 2007 and he fell in 2006.
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He jumped perfectly in last season's Gold Cup bar the last.
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He did, but was never really asked to jump at pace until that fence. It`s such a shame he blundered the last as with a perfect leap he`d have seen off NC no bother.

The bottom line for me is that a flat track up to 3 miles are Kauto Star`s optimum conditions - any further and he`s vulnerable to a horse of around the same ability.
 
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