Kauto Star RIP

I don't know if any of you were around when Arkle was strutting his stuff. I was and I assure you there were no Kauto Star's around in that era.

Arkle in fact never had a decent rival to compare him with. Certainly nothing that was bred like the speedster's of today.

Of course there was Mill House and he was very good but his race record in comparison to Denman's was poor.

For a brief spell in his career before Arkle came to himself he looked unbeatable winning 7 from 8 races but after that he won only 6 from his last 18 races

Hardly a record you could compare to Denman who won 13 from 14 before his heart problem. tbh I would have backed Denman to beat Mill House any day of the week

Mill House was in fact the only good horse Arkle ever took on at level weights. Even the King George was a handicap back then.

One of the reason we have this huge gap between the ratings is Arkle was very superior and probably would have been more in place running today that he was in the 60's

While most horses take after the dam Arkle had a lot of speed which most likely had a lot to do with the unbeaten Nearco's blood in his veins.

Most staying chases in the 60's were exactly that and most of the horses Arkle beat were best suited to running over extreme distances.

He definitely would have found it much more difficult giving lumps of weight to the French bred horses of today who have much more natural speed about them due to the way they are bred.

Trying to compare is impossible because chasers have changed so much since the 60's
 
Tanlic said:
Trying to compare is impossible because chasers have changed so much since the 60's
Click to expand...
Your earlier argument is wholly undermined by that final sentence.

Kauto Star was the best of his generation. We should be thankful to have seen him and sorry he didn't get a longer retirement. Comparisons with other chasers belong on a different thread.
 
Latest article on the RP is eye opening even though it is largely speculation.

Such a sad demise for a legend.
 
EC1 said:
Mill House was classed as the best horse of his generation..he was very similar to Denman...what would rate a horse that beat Denman like Arkle kept beating MH.
Click to expand...

You are spot on. Mill House was a very similar type to Denman, perhaps even more imposing, but very active and athletic, especially as a young horse.

I saw Mill House in the flesh in 1964 and he was a quite sensational-looking individual.

It was a pity that he went backwards after 1964, as I recall he had a fair bit of back trouble. When he won the Whitbread under top weight as a 10-y-o, he was nothing like the horse he had been.

In his prime, I'd say he was about as good as Denman in his prime.
 
We are blessed to have lived in an era to see horses as good as Kauto Star and Dessie who had equal ability over two and three miles plus.
That Kauto could halve fences and not lose stride or momentum was also unique.
 
Venusian said:
You are spot on. Mill House was a very similar type to Denman, perhaps even more imposing, but very active and athletic, especially as a young horse.

I saw Mill House in the flesh in 1964 and he was a quite sensational-looking individual.

It was a pity that he went backwards after 1964, as I recall he had a fair bit of back trouble. When he won the Whitbread under top weight as a 10-y-o, he was nothing like the horse he had been.

In his prime, I'd say he was about as good as Denman in his prime.
Click to expand...

The real question for me will always be how close was Mill House to Arkle when he was in his prime.

So much of his rating came from that 30 lengths hammering Arkle gave Mill House in 65 and the Gallagher Gold Cup

Going into the 1963 Gold Cup Mill House had won The Hennessy the King George and the Gainsburgh chase and it's safe to say he was at his best.

However after the Gold Cup he lost again to Dormant in the Whitbread and followed up that defeat with another in the Hennessy when he finished 4th to Arkle

Punters lost a lot of faith in Mill House who looked to have gone backwards.....He won the Gainsborough again but that was a second rate race he had won at 1/7 and was nothing to write home about.

After Arkle thrashed him in the Gold Cup he was beaten yet again at Ascot. He did manged to win 2 races. one either side of the Gallacher Gold cup but they were total non events and he went off at odds in them. When asked the question he lost yet again in the Massey Ferguson and in the Great Yorkshire.

Racing is all about opinions and mines is that reading through the lines Arkle probably was about 7lbs ahead of Mill House at his best but not 30lbs or whatever.

That's like saying Dodging Bullets is a stone better than Sprinter Sacre was.

I loved Arkle to bit everyone did he was a real hero in the same mould as Muhhamad Ali was in his prime but you have to be realistic

The gap in ratings between Arkle and real champions like Dessie Kauto is strictly for the birds.

If Denman was as good as Mill House then for me Kauto was almost as good as Arkle.

Imagine both in the prime of their lives without error flying round Kempton it is in my mind impossible that Arkle could have put more than 2 to 5 lengths between himself and Kauto but if you believed the 212- 191 rating and in fairies he would absolutely trounce him by 10 to 20 lengths.
 
And we'll never know because they never raced, but where does the 210-rated Flyingbolt fit in? I think he would have been the 'Kauto Star' type to test Arkle to the limit, and we may have had a meaningful parameter by which we could compare Kauto Star to Arkle.
 
Good question Len. He won the Massey Ferguson in the mud beating his main rival Scottish Memories who was running miles short of his best trip. Because Scottish Memories had finsihed closer to Arkle Flyingbolt's rating went shooting up. Flyingbolt also beat the same horse as Arkle did in the Irish National in Height of Fashion and that sealed his fate......he must be as good as Arkle they said

He won the 2 mile champion chase then ran 3rd in the Champion Hurdle which was regarded as a fantastic feat. He was actually beaten very easily by Salmon Spray and Kirriemuir who won the race 2 years before also finished in front of him. I imagine the likes of Sprinter would have done as good if not better had he been asked to run in both.

In a way Flyingbolt reminds me Master Minded when he became the highest rated chaser in training when beating the grossly overrated (at 2 miles) Vor Por Ustedes



He actually never won that many big races as his career was cut short by illness and he ended up in Rhona Olivers yard in Hassledean/Hawick.



Irish Grand National 1966

Two Mile Champion Chase 1966

Massey Ferguson Gold Cup 1965

Black & White Gold Cup 1965

Cotswold Novices Chase 1965

Leopardstown Chase 1965

Thyestes Chase 1966

Gloucester Hurdle 1964

However winning 8 big races in any era takes some doing but judging how good he actually was or how close to Arkle he was using collateral form is as difficult as working out who was better? Sea Bird or Frankel?
 
Cruella said:
Ugh, it's all getting unnecessarily unpleasant and messy between Smith and Nicholls:

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=9776324&category=0
Click to expand...

I see nothing unpleasant coming from Paul Nichols but Smith is like a fooking baby.

The horse meant the world to PN and Co and he didn't have the common decency to tell them the horse was seriously ill.

He sites PN not going up to him at Kempton as a partial reason. I would imagine PN felt about as welcome as a fart in a spacesuit and that is why he never went near.

Can't believe I am in PN's camp as he can be such a dick but in this case Smith has been a complete c***.

A personal call to PN with the sad news when it happened, concern for the horse would have brushed all differences aside instantly.
 
Last edited:
Agree that common courtesy would've meant an update should have been given to PFN much earlier but attempts to distance himself from mud slinging are laughable as it was he who started it.
Also agree Smith has been a complete c***


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Would 'both be as bad as each other'..but for different reasons....be a fair assessment of the pair?
 
Last edited:
I have some sympathy for Smith, particularly when you remember that he has lived through the last week and was with Kauto at the end so is probably feeling rather emotional and raw.

Nicholls made his original response to the announcement All. About. Him. and I'm not entirely surprised Smith has finally bitten back. I'd be a bit p*ssed off if the first thing I saw from my former trainer was "waah, waah, I didn't get to see him" especially if it's true that the Ditcheat team had an open invitation to visit at any time since Kauto's retirement and didn't - it's not as if Smith lives at Laura Collett's yard, she wasn't involved in the original dispute except as a third party dragged into it (she certainly didn't make any public statements at the time other than to say how honoured and excited she was to have him) - so there was no reason not to visit if being made to feel unwelcome by Smith was the concern.

On purely practical terms the fact Kauto was being treated initially makes it clear the vets, and therefore Smith/Collett, were hopeful of a recovery and therefore there would have been no need of contacting people for "farewell visits" - indeed, a stream of visitors may have been exactly the wrong thing for the horse's welfare if part of his treatment involved keeping him quiet and calm. Having been involved with horses myself, it's not hard to imagine that the changes/secondary developments which led to his euthanasia and the decision to take that course of action were made in a comparatively short timescale. He was clearly deteriorating and may have done so quite rapidly - laminitis is excruciatingly painful for a horse, pneumonia can be fatal - and so once the discussion that the only option was PTS had taken place, it would not have been in the best interests of Kauto's welfare to prolong his suffering for the time it would have taken to contact people and get them down to Lambourn (I've read reports that Clifford Baker was abroad on holiday, for example). "Saying goodbye" makes the human feel better, not the horse, and isn't a valid reason to keep a horse that is known to be in pain and deteriorating alive for any longer than necessary.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the original fall-out, I don't think Smith is as black as he is being painted when it comes to recent events. Nicholls started it, Smith has responded. Having said all that, I think it would have been better all round for this dirty linen not to have been washed in public and for both of them to put their differences behind them, act the bigger person(s) and let us all remember Kauto as the champion he was without the personal relationships getting in the way.
 
How did PN start it..Did he call the media and say nobody told me? or was he asked "when did you find out"

I assume when the news broke and the media had no prior knowledge of it so the first question they would ask PN when did you find out (and why weren't we told)


That certainly would bring about the quote you read which in no shape or form is abusive

.
 
I didn't say it was abusive but it was self-centred, switching the focus from Kauto's achievements onto his own sense of hard-done-by-ness.

If he was asked by the media "when did you find out?" he could just as easily have said "Laura Collett rang me prior to the press release" and left it at that. If he then wanted to take up his disgruntlement at not being able to say goodbye he could have done so privately with Smith.
 
Did you even read what the man said? he praised Kauto to the heavens

Too bloody true he mentioned he and his staff were dealt a bad hand by Smith.

Please don't make me laugh about what he could have said. The press don't lie down that easily...........If PN had known why didn't he let people know would have been the next question and he'd be dragged down with Smith..

Why should he cover up for Smith by misleading people?..........do get a grip
 
Last edited:
We went through all this unseemly business when Kauto was retired.

It's yet another clash of two burly egos - though thankfully both are puny enough not to interfere with Kauto's legacy.
 
Grasshopper said:
We went through all this unseemly business when Kauto was retired.

It's yet another clash of two burly egos - though thankfully both are puny enough not to interfere with Kauto's legacy.
Click to expand...

totally agree..its an unnecessesary blight on the greatest chaser any of us are likely to see...compare this to the moving Frankel/Cecil story...a combintion of greatness and sadness i doubt any of us will witness again
 
Last edited:
Totally off topic, but I finally watched that the other day - absolute class. If they tried to do similar about KS it would be more like an episode of eastenders !!
 
Should of been retired that's the issue. Was made to go prancing about. Kauto deserved better.
 
No complaints about Neptune Collonges doing dressage [but, then again his owner still gives PN horses to train....].
 
Totally off topic, but I finally watched that the other day - absolute class. If they tried to do similar about KS it would be more like an episode of eastenders !!
Click to expand...

I've always wondered if the reason there has never been a Kauto DVD is that neither of the two, ah, "Burly egos" (nice one Grassy) would deign to appear alongside the other.
 
trudij said:
Totally off topic, but I finally watched that the other day - absolute class. If they tried to do similar about KS it would be more like an episode of eastenders !!
Click to expand...


They could make a remarkable story of it. Precocious youth, Hollywood last fences and superstar chaser and final KG was box office. Grassy is right in that no public fallout will take away from the horse
 
Back
Top