JH problem over fences has always been the jumping part. Have you seen his latest outings? Seems the problem is fixed. I have no clue how you think T2T is anywhere near JH class.
King George VI Chase
- Thread starter Grasshopper
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JH problem over fences has always been the jumping part. Have you seen his latest outings? Seems the problem is fixed. I have no clue how you think T2T is anywhere near JH class.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I can't see the extra distance helping Tea For Two and you really should try watching racing now and then:lol:. There's no real evidence 3m will help as he's only ran 3 and lost 2 and the Feltham was really a bit of a non event with Native River running a stinker.
Tea For Two ran in October so wasn't totally unfit. The entire field had their supporters and were covered by prices ranging for 7/4 to 6/1. Josses did go off fav but tbh won like a 1/6 shot. He didn't beat them he trounced them. There isn't even a glimmer of hope you could take from that race that would give Tea For Two a chance of reversing places.
The only hope for Tea For Two is he picks up legless horses in the dying stages and Yes!!!! Josses Hill could be one of them if he does not stay but not because 3 miles is going to improve Tea For Two.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Don't you remember? :lol:
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
That's my worry Wilson. We see it way too often with 2nd favs in bad races where the forecast looks nailed on but because the 2nd fav has knackered himself trying to fend off the hotpaot some no hoper comes in picks him up.
I'm really not to worried about Thistlecrack as he won't be up there early on and I doubt if he will actually figure in the race. He's going into unknown territory and his WH form doesn't even come close to what he faces here. I think the pace will find him and his lack of experience out big time and he's the lay of the year.............what is a ThistleCrack anyway...............evolution gone wild?:lol:
It's when Cue Card decides to go and the way he is ridden these days you can expect a move just after the home turn and Josses Hill could easily collapse in a heap as you suggest.
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Grasshopper
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Hold the front page, scoop.
In simplistic terms, it's not a class issue, it's a trip issue. In even more simplistic terms, TFT is a G1 winner over fences, and Josses Hill is not. TFT also has more scope to progress, having has so few steeplechase outings. The Peterborough is absolutely as good as Josses Hill is, imo i.e. no better than smart.
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Grasshopper
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Frankly, I don't recall saying either of them had any chance! 
In my view, Cue Card is essentially bullet-proof, and the only question is around whether or not Thistlecrack can jump well enough to be in contention at the business-end.
Despite there being no absolutely-obvious front-runner, the first mile of the King George is usually run at a fierce pace regardless. Thistlecrack's race will probably be determined by how well he negotiates the first half-dozen or so fences, when they are going at it full-tilt.
In my view, Cue Card is essentially bullet-proof, and the only question is around whether or not Thistlecrack can jump well enough to be in contention at the business-end. Despite there being no absolutely-obvious front-runner, the first mile of the King George is usually run at a fierce pace regardless. Thistlecrack's race will probably be determined by how well he negotiates the first half-dozen or so fences, when they are going at it full-tilt.
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I really fancy Cue Card for this but if they meet again in March, Id fancy Thistlecrack to turn the tables on him. That's mainly down to the difference in courses & fact the KG is more often than not ran at breakneck pace for the first half of the race. You don't always get that in the GC which would give TC more of a chance to settle. Kauto stars first gold cup win, when people were doubting his stamina, was run at a crawl and he flew home and there's more examples of similarly run Gold Cups over the years. Kauto of course later proved he had reserves of stamina in the tank to cement him as one of the greatest ever.
Kempton plays to the strengths of CC and he is so experienced jumping those fences at speed. I reckon there'll be no shortage of pace on early. Josses Hill with his new front running style will be keen to bowl on. Silvinaco Conti if he goes, questionable now as Fehily is confirmed for JH, will be there. If he does go there is guaranteed to be a battle up front to lead. Conti set it up last year for the stayers to come to the fore late on by serving it up early doors. Tea for Two is usually handy enough, as is Outlander and of course CC and Paddy Brennan will be anxious to put Thistlecracks jumping under scrutiny. He has proved after last year when SC set a blistering pace that he has the ability to jump at that speed whilst also calling on more reserves when needed late on!
For me there is more than enough evidence to both support CC and take on TC. I was really surprised they sent TC here and I hope they wont be regretting it come next Monday evening. It's a massive task to ask a novice to run in such a hot race where traditionally the fractions early are very hot. If he wins this he is some horse but I think he'll find his neighbour will be just too good for him. I think Outlander is also extremely good value for a place and I'll have an ew bet on him too.
CC made Christmas for me last year beating the ill fated Vautour and I hope he can do the same again this year and keep his King George title for another year.
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Kempton plays to the strengths of CC and he is so experienced jumping those fences at speed. I reckon there'll be no shortage of pace on early. Josses Hill with his new front running style will be keen to bowl on. Silvinaco Conti if he goes, questionable now as Fehily is confirmed for JH, will be there. If he does go there is guaranteed to be a battle up front to lead. Conti set it up last year for the stayers to come to the fore late on by serving it up early doors. Tea for Two is usually handy enough, as is Outlander and of course CC and Paddy Brennan will be anxious to put Thistlecracks jumping under scrutiny. He has proved after last year when SC set a blistering pace that he has the ability to jump at that speed whilst also calling on more reserves when needed late on!
For me there is more than enough evidence to both support CC and take on TC. I was really surprised they sent TC here and I hope they wont be regretting it come next Monday evening. It's a massive task to ask a novice to run in such a hot race where traditionally the fractions early are very hot. If he wins this he is some horse but I think he'll find his neighbour will be just too good for him. I think Outlander is also extremely good value for a place and I'll have an ew bet on him too.
CC made Christmas for me last year beating the ill fated Vautour and I hope he can do the same again this year and keep his King George title for another year.
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Sure, so you think that any G1 win means a horse is better than another? In terms of form Josses Hill-that didn't knew how to jump- beating of Gods Own would leave T4T behind in his G1 win, just like we saw happening lto. If JH continues to display good jumping then he might even come into contention in the KG let alone leaving T4T behind again.
Grasshopper
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You were the one that brought 'class' into the discussion, not me. Try noting the "even more simplistic" caveat in my post - though it's no surprise even that seems beyond your comprehension.
Back Josses Hill if you want. I frankly don't give a flying one through a doughnut what you do with your money.
Back Josses Hill if you want. I frankly don't give a flying one through a doughnut what you do with your money.
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Grasshopper
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So I'm the one quoting out of context? You really are a Bobby Dazzler, pal.
I define Josses as a no-hoper based on him being wholly unproven at 3m, and taking the view that he won't get home - especially as it seems unlikely he will be ridden to get the trip, because his jumping might go to pot if they held him up. That view has nothing whatsoever to do with his class over shorter, or Tea For Two, or anything else.
PS. I don't feel I'm smarter.
I define Josses as a no-hoper based on him being wholly unproven at 3m, and taking the view that he won't get home - especially as it seems unlikely he will be ridden to get the trip, because his jumping might go to pot if they held him up. That view has nothing whatsoever to do with his class over shorter, or Tea For Two, or anything else.
PS. I don't feel I'm smarter.
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Perpetual
At the Start
7 confirmed (and no Outlander)
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granger
Senior Jockey
Cue Card - Least questions to answer. Brilliant racehorse
Josses Hill - short of top class, trip may find him out ala Azertyiop
Road to Riches - Horse butchered by his connections - afterthought at this stage
Roi Des Francs - Seriously?
Sil Conti - Good servant, might stay on to get 3rd/4th
Tea for Two - Feltham winner, needs 3m, interesting outsider
Thistlecrack - Sink or Swim,first 6 fences will determine his race, if taken on for the lead, surely will be a good pace, his jumping may struggle
Cue Card (NAP)
Josses Hill - short of top class, trip may find him out ala Azertyiop
Road to Riches - Horse butchered by his connections - afterthought at this stage
Roi Des Francs - Seriously?
Sil Conti - Good servant, might stay on to get 3rd/4th
Tea for Two - Feltham winner, needs 3m, interesting outsider
Thistlecrack - Sink or Swim,first 6 fences will determine his race, if taken on for the lead, surely will be a good pace, his jumping may struggle
Cue Card (NAP)
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Well now we know there's going to be a right good pace up front with SC declared. Connections of JH seemed confident they had secured Noel Fehily's services so does Sam TD get the ride now? Himself and Josses Hill look like they'll want/need the lead. Interesting to see how Thistlecracks jumping holds up against this pace.
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Grasshopper
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"Probably"? Really?
Cue Card being seriously under-estimated in some quarters here. When alls said and done, probably the best horse Thistlecrack has ever beaten, is Cole Harden. OK, he hammered him, but Cue Card is in an altogether different league from anything Thistlecrack has met........ever.
Cue Card being seriously under-estimated in some quarters here. When alls said and done, probably the best horse Thistlecrack has ever beaten, is Cole Harden. OK, he hammered him, but Cue Card is in an altogether different league from anything Thistlecrack has met........ever.
Frankel
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Yes.
That doesn't mean CC is looked over lightly. CC is top notch. That said Thistlecrack has more gears. You can argue who he beat. That was with any amount in hand.
CC looked more a stayer in the race last year. Given a clear round I would think Thistlecrack would have too much pace.
That said I hope CC sticks it up em.
That doesn't mean CC is looked over lightly. CC is top notch. That said Thistlecrack has more gears. You can argue who he beat. That was with any amount in hand.
CC looked more a stayer in the race last year. Given a clear round I would think Thistlecrack would have too much pace.
That said I hope CC sticks it up em.
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tiggers1972
Senior Jockey
Fascinating race, I love Cue Card but think Thisltecrack could me a monster.
Grasshopper
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The point still stands. Thistlecrack has never faced a horse that could take him out of his comfort zone. In Cue Card, he will meet one who almost certainly can and will.
If he can dispatch a horse of Cue Card's calibre with his customary authority next week, then he really is everything that supporters say he is. By nature, I remain a sceptic until I see it happen.
Agree though - Thistlecrack's presence undoubtedly elevates what would otherwise have been a drab renewal.
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Frankel
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Hopefully both have a clear round.
Yep the fact Thistlecrack is running is a huge plus.
I'm not sure I agree that the pace of the King George is a problem for Thistlecrack. After reviewing his novice sighters his jumping was scratchy when they were dawdling, but it was excellent when he was striding on, and the extra pace on Boxing Day may actually help him. Cue Card is known to make the odd mistake too don't forget!
Someone mentioned the track or trip being a problem but I don't see that at all. The unknown as Grassy says is just how good he is when he has to eyeball a horse of Cue Card's calibre.
I always have a bet in the King George, but this year I'll just be watching with fascination. Seven runners and the remainder of the field don't offer a viable each way alternative, so it's just one to enjoy.
Someone mentioned the track or trip being a problem but I don't see that at all. The unknown as Grassy says is just how good he is when he has to eyeball a horse of Cue Card's calibre.
I always have a bet in the King George, but this year I'll just be watching with fascination. Seven runners and the remainder of the field don't offer a viable each way alternative, so it's just one to enjoy.
Unless like me you took 14/1 ew on Tea For Two anti post....according to JamesRB I get first three places!