Kingman

Though he was impressive enough, and will improve again for the experience, it might be worth bearing in mind that neither of the Godolphin horses he beat have any gp1 entries.
 
Reet

None of the Godolphin 2-y-os do. Their policy seems to be supplement as and when rather than enter them all.
 
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Not only are they not entered in any Group 1 races, but neither of the Godolphin horses are entered in any of the remaining big 2 year old races. The only entry they have between them is a listed race at Redcar. There are about ten other Godolphin 2 yos currently entered in the big end of season races.
 
Call me controversial but I'm going with the crazy theory that in entering both horses in a Group Three they may have been of the view that they were up to Group Three standard.
 
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gus said:
Cal me controversial but I'm going with the crazy theory that in entering both horses in a Group Three they may have been of the view that they were up to Group Three standard.
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:D

Kingman looked special to me. I would almost say he is not the worst bet ever for next year either.
 
I think he's a nice horse but he needs to learn how to gallop properly still. He's still at that real baby stage of not knowing how to stretch properly and so has plenty of knee action and a slightly high head carriage. They should be teaching him that at home, but I doubt whether the great home work riders still exist as there are so many foreign lads employed these days.
 
jinnyj said:
They should be teaching him that at home, but I doubt whether the great home work riders still exist as there are so many foreign lads employed these days.
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Is there any reason why home work riders can teach this any better than foreign lads?
 
What do you want me to call them? I am not being xenophobic - I am just saying it how it is for want of a better explanation.

When I started out, I worked for firstly Charlie Nelson & then Luca Cumani. We had some first class riders at both yards. However now with the influx of foreign lads from Eastern Europe & India/Pakistan, the standard of riding has dropped considerably. Many of them have poor English language skills, let alone a lifetime in a racing yard. And they unlike all our stable staff do not have to attend one of the Racing Schools for a course (9 weeks) to assess their riding skills.

So yes I would say their is a huge huge difference in the way horses are now being ridden & trained. I have great admiration for the hard work that many foreign lads put in. Lads I used to work with could tell you after sitting on a horse a few times - the going the horse needed, the trip, the probable rating it would end up with. More recently when I have been in Newmarket, I wince at the way horses are being ridden now - hauled around like a motorbike.

To a certain extent you can blame the trainers for cost-cutting as they seem to be able to pay the foreigners less and "stack-em up" in their accommodation - 2/3 to a room which would be unthinkable to a British/Irish lad these days. In addition they are happier to accept a harder working pace and so lads are now looking after anything between 4-8 horses each whereas it never used to be more than 3. Consequently you have to have very good head lads/assistants to be able to compensate and oversee what a lad could have spotted had he not been flat out every day.
 
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jinnyj said:
Lads I used to work with could tell you after sitting on a horse a few times - the going the horse needed, the trip, the probable rating it would end up with.
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Given professional jockeys can't even get this right in my experience, I would be surprised if what are, in the most part, jockeys that didn't make it can accurately predict these unique characterstics.

I think the assumption that work riders from Eastern Europe or India know less about horses is hard to prove.
 
Well I guess we are just going to have to disagree over this but then I only have 25 years experience within the industry and have seen the current demise of the way horses are now ridden. Don't forget lads used to arrive in a yard and they became apprentices to that trainer for 5 years. They were trained by the head lad and senior lads on their riding skills as well as looking after their charges. When I first started riding racehorses, I was a fair rider having hunted/Pony Clubbed most of my life. It is a completely different way of riding and I had loads to learn, and was taught by some very good lads. Initially how to hold a horse that took a hold and then learning to balance it and educate a young horse. Its not just a question of sitting on the thing, steering and pulling on the reins when you want to stop. I can now tell you what sort of ground a horse will act best on, whether it is well-enough balanced to handle somewhere like Epsom or Brighton, what its ultimate trip should be. You have to teach a horse to listen to its jockey so that it will settle and not burn up energy. Ever wondered why some trainers horses always pull? Probably because the staff at home are not good enough. OK some horses will always get lit up on a racecourse, but the trainer should know his staff well enough to put the right lad on to settle it/keep its mind on the job.

I can go on forever but have a read of this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Training-Racehorse-Tim-Fitzgeorge-Parker/dp/0851315860

Its dated but a very good book.
 
jinnyj said:
Well I guess we are just going to have to disagree over this but then I only have 25 years experience within the industry and have seen the current demise of the way horses are now ridden. Don't forget lads used to arrive in a yard and they became apprentices to that trainer for 5 years. They were trained by the head lad and senior lads on their riding skills as well as looking after their charges. When I first started riding racehorses, I was a fair rider having hunted/Pony Clubbed most of my life. It is a completely different way of riding and I had loads to learn, and was taught by some very good lads. Initially how to hold a horse that took a hold and then learning to balance it and educate a young horse. Its not just a question of sitting on the thing, steering and pulling on the reins when you want to stop. I can now tell you what sort of ground a horse will act best on, whether it is well-enough balanced to handle somewhere like Epsom or Brighton, what its ultimate trip should be. You have to teach a horse to listen to its jockey so that it will settle and not burn up energy. Ever wondered why some trainers horses always pull? Probably because the staff at home are not good enough. OK some horses will always get lit up on a racecourse, but the trainer should know his staff well enough to put the right lad on to settle it/keep its mind on the job.

I can go on forever but have a read of this book:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Training-Racehorse-Tim-Fitzgeorge-Parker/dp/0851315860

Its dated but a very good book.
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All very fair points but still doesn't get away from the point that all of the above attributes and qualities in riders can be taught in both India and Eastern Europe with the former especially having a lot of racing yards.

It sounds to me as though the issue is poor training of staff in yards in this country regardless of where the staff are sourced from, be it locally or internationally.
 
Quite probably but the crux is that the BHA are happy to let foreign staff be employed in this country with absaloutly no assessment whatsoever whereas all UK based staff MUST attend one of the Racing Schools 9 week courses before they are allowed to work in racing stables and be on the Stable employee register. And that is regardless of riding ability prior to the course. Trainers will often have a talented kid who has either done Pony Club or pony racing and will be more than competent to start in a yard but they still have to attend. Whereas I have seen plenty of non-UK/Irish staff arrive, tack up a horse and off they go - and its often not a pretty sight. Of course its the trainers responsibility to check out their claims but if someone says "Oh yes, yes I was jockey back in Turkmenistan - I good rider" - are they really going to check them out - unlikely.

The Racing Schools in this country do a good job teaching non-riders to handle a racehorse in 9 weeks. And many trainers go up to the school to cherry-pick the best from each course. That said they still need to learn once they get to the yard.

Back to the topic, Kingman is a nice horse but can't gallop properly - he is still slightly ungainly in his knee action and his head carriage. He needs to learn how to collect his stride before being asked to lengthen both stride and lower his head. To some horses this will come naturally but you'd be amazed how odd it is to sit on a horse and canter it for the first time. It needs to learn how to balance itself first before you can think about going fast. I watch some of these early 2yo races and could cry at the lack of education they have obviously had. Legs all over the place they show some speed for about 2 furlongs then fall in a heap - and those are the ones who have been artificially pushed when not ready who will often end up getting all sorts of physical problems.
 
I remember John Oxx singing the praises of Pat Eddery when he had 2nd call to him after MVOBrien.
He never rode work for him but in races, especially on horses first time out was excellent to balance,educate and win without giving them a hard race.
horses always ate up after him and improved beyond all recognition after their race.
His first season strike rate with Oxx was 45% or so.
 
Rosso Corsa, a well-beaten last at Sandown on Saturday, did the Solario form no harm at all today when running a decent second in a conditions race at Goodwood.
 
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Don't be afraid to state what you think is right Jinnyj.

And I'm sure Jim White told Noel Murless months before Royal Palace ran as a 2yo that he was his Derby horse and needed to be trained for it.
 
Only just looked into the last page of the thread. Good discussion with fair points on both sides.

Jinny, if you got back into full-time training, would you employ riding staff only if they had done the UK course?

As for Kingman, my figures say the Solario time was very moderate. Not the kind of performance you want to risk the mortgage on.
 
Good stuff jinny A fine insight and you tell it as you see it. Fine points from one side only
 
Desert Orchid said:
As for Kingman, my figures say the Solario time was very moderate. Not the kind of performance you want to risk the mortgage on.
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His Guineas price is very much on the short side but, given the way the race was run, he couldn't possibly have recorded a fast time at Sandown.
 
Sea the stars betesford time was the worst of its history and slowest 2yo group time of the year
 
Just goes to show u can't use slow times in group company to say horses aren't that good
 
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