Margaret Thatcher dead

Grass

True. But thats bloody women for you isnt it

Magic. :lol:

More seriously, i think that right across the political spectrum any rational person knew that we couldn't carry on as we did and radical change was required. it wasnt just the economy that was rotten but the whole working culture and where the fck were we going?

She was wrong on certain issues for sure but which would be rolled back now? Not many.....

Having said that, it did tip over. Europe and the poll tax ultimately brought her down

Agree with a lot of that, clivex.

I remember little of the material-impact of the winter of discontent, save for bonus days off school, and the Firemans Strike, and age-wise, I'm more a product of her policies, than I was the depths of the Labour/Union years.

A lot of my peers toiled to get jobs upon leaving school in 1983/1984 (Uni in those days being very 'elite' and considered - rightly or wrongly - unattainable where I grew-up. My old-man was also made redundant.

In that sense, I am no defender of Thatcher, but history suggests that she was a needed anti-dote to a Labour alternative who would have liked the UK to have developed along the lines of roaring-success stories like Romania and Bulgaria.

My problem with her taking-on the unions wasn't that she took on the Unions, but that she was prepared to dismantle entire societies in order to win her war. Trade Union policy was executed with a sniffy indifference, verging into callous disregard; with 99.9% of victims being ordinary men who just wanted to work.

Certainly, the Miners had their lunatics, but the escalation of that conflict was largely Mrs Thatcher's bidding. And similar scenarios played-out at Liverpool, Ravenenscraig and many other places.

She treated normal people like they were members of a Trotskyite Army: to be crushed underfoot and marked-up as collateral damage. And it struck me that she developed a bit of a taste for that kind of blood.

She had conviction, but she was lacking in conscience - no matter how kind she was to those close to her.
 
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The problem was that certain industries were tied up with "societies" but should that exclude them from economic rigidity? Difficult question that she met head on but whilst it was certainly ruthless those industries did reap what they sowed to a pretty large extent. the subsidies were enormous and the unproductivity alarming. Sadly that affected the workers most and not the union leaders, managers and politicans who allowed that to develop

Its a tricky one though because economic cases can be made in many different ways of course and how far politics determined the battle with the miners or how far it was economics is still a little uncertain perhaps. Would mining have had more of a future without the true idiot Scargill threatening to bring the government down (was he mentally ill? )

What always baffled me was why labour shifted to the left when she came tp power. I get a little tired of hearing how divisive she was when you had the opposition waging class warfare. Had Labour had Healey instead of Foot (who was a charming man for sure) and not that incredible "longest suicide note in history" would history be different? As they stood and Regardless of pre Falklands polls i do not believe they would have been elected whatever happened.

The country had shifted to the right. Interesting polls in that fine book im finishing that were taken pre thatcher illustrated that to a remarkable extent especially amongst the working class and trade union members.

Franly she couldnt have picked easier opponents than kinnock (a staunch labour friend of mine dreaded him getting in power) and foot but she was formidable. Extraordinarily so.

Ultimately there were bound to be winners and losers as there is with any economic sea change but the key has to be the overall prosperity of the country. We have a pretty enterprising (number 2 or 3 on the world bank "ease of business index" for instance) can do culture now which is the polar opposite to 1979 and thats a huge and developing legacy
 
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She was good friends with saville with what i've read he used top spend christmas with her i think that just about sums up her judgements.A most vile,compassionless woman with no understanding for empathy whatsovever she lived to have a far better life than those she ruined!!!:ninja:
 
She perhaps didnt spend enough on education too. Unfortunately lack of literacy is an on going issue
 
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I'll let you have that one colin. Although in defence, writing a column for a business magazine (never edited) as well as a few articles elsewhere is one of my paid vocations

Fortunately i dont have to type that welsh language drivel which looks like someones sat on the keyboard :)

Little chance of simmos keyboard being worn down given that his average (very average) post rarely extends to more than three words and "'wa?nker". Bit like vinnie Jones with tourettes. would find the expanse of twitter a challenge
 
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My grandad and dad were miners and I grew up in a village where mining played a massive part in most people's lives.I telephoned my father today on hearing the news only to be told by my mother he was at the pub,he hasnt drunk for about 15 years.There are parts of Wales tonight that will be joyous.If that offends some people then I apologise but a lot of people here have long memories.
 
Actually during her retirement, when she could give fuller voice to her right wing instincts, she did express regret about two very important decisions she made, the signing of the Anglo Irish Agreement and entry into the European exchange rate mechanism, a forerunner of the euro.

Her expressions of regret about the former decision were puzzling and surprising, because she appeared to say she had signed the agreement against her better judgement. Few people in Britain or Ireland would now agree that it was a mistake.
 
From Billy Bragg, Calgary, AB, Canada, on the death of Margaret Thatcher:

This is not a time for celebration. The death of Margaret Thatcher is nothing more than a salient reminder of how Britain got into the mess that we are in today. Of why ordinary working people are no longer able to earn enough from one job to support a family; of why there is a shortage of decent affordable housing; of why domestic growth is driven by credit, not by real incomes; of why tax-payers are forced to top up wages; of why a spiteful government seeks to penalise the poor for having an extra bedroom; of why Rupert Murdoch became so powerful; of why cynicism and greed became the hallmarks of our society.

Raising a glass to the death of an infirm old lady changes none of this. The only real antidote to cynicism is activism. Don't celebrate - organise!
 
An interesting post from elsewhere which I have shamelessly stolen. I agree with many of the points. For the benefit of the intellectually bereft - that means that I don't agree with some of the points.


Ten Reasons To Despise Thatcher

1) The woman whose anti-Trade Union policies reduced the power of collectivism to zero, and who decimated the employment rights of working class people everywhere. As a result, employers were legally permitted to replace proper meaningful jobs and apprenticeships, and exploit workers on perverted government schemes, paying them just £25 pounds per week in the process. Right-wing, extremist social and economic policy, espoused by the likes of Friedrich Hayek & Milton Friedman was to become the order of the day, and at it’s peak, over 3.6 million people would be out of work and on the dole.

2) The woman who massively widened the already obscene gap between the rich and the poor, as her supporters in big business, the newly privatised utilities, and the arms and defence industries made billions. The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, and the word 'underclass' entered the public vocabulary for the first time. For millions of people, Thatcherism represented nothing more than crippling unemployment, homelessness, poverty, crime, drug abuse and hopelessness. For the elite Thatcherism represented an opportunity for the rich to get even richer by asset-stripping the country, as the orgy of greed that was Deregulation, was spun to look like something that the nation should be proud of, rather than the obscene, carpet-bagging, feeding frenzy that it actually was.

3) The woman who actively promoted selfishness, and disdain for those less able, with her infamous 'no such thing as society' mercenary attitude, and who almost worshipped greed and opportunism as virtues. On 23rd September 1987, she told journalist Douglas Keay: “People say ‘I am homeless, the Government must house me’, and so they are casting their problems onto society, and who is society ? There is no such thing ! There are individual men and women, and no government can do anything except through people. People must look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves”. Dog eat dog, survival of the fittest, sink or swim, and I'm alright Jack - the very essence of Thatcherism, and her cold-hearted, wicked, vindictive, self-serving policies. Despite having no mandate to govern in Scotland, where she was rejected at the ballot box three times; three times she returned her illegitimate administration to power. And for eleven and a half years, her despotic, vindictive and spiteful policies were imposed upon the working class peoples who openly and democratically rejected her. Hell hath no fury like a dictator scorned, and she was to exact an awful toll for such rejection. People who drew strength from their working communities, were to have those communities erased before their very eyes. The weeds would relentlessly grow, where for centuries there was working life.

4) The woman whose atrocious employment policies favoured those who kept her in power, at the expense of the working class people who actually generated the wealth. During her reign 250,000 people in Scotland lost their jobs as coal mines closed and industrial giants such as Ravenscraig Steel Plant were shut. A highly skilled industrial workforce, was annihilated at the stroke of a pen. Heavy industry, at the time was inefficient, heavily subsidised, and in need of modernisation. Instead of operating on the patient, Thatcher switched the life support system off. The subsidies could be used as tax breaks elsewhere, to reward those middle and upper classes, who kept her in power. Secure, full-time employment in manufacturing, engineering, and heavy industry was replaced with low paid casual, temporary contract work in the call centre, fast food, and service sectors. In the process, worker's rights were eroded to almost zero. An almost fanatical anti-Europeanism ensured that it would be many, many more years before Britain entered parity with the rest of the European Union on worker's rights and minimum wage levels. In many cases, parity is still a long way off.

5) The woman who led a campaign demanding that General Augusto Pinochet be set free, after he was detained in the UK under an international arrest warrant from Spain, who were seeking his extradition to face charges of war crimes. The vile dictator, was directly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of workers, socialists and other political opponents; presided over mass executions, torture and rape; and was openly described by his evil admirer, as 'a bastion of democracy' and the man ‘who brought democracy to Chile’.

6) The woman who called mass-murdering dictator Suharto 'one of our very best and most valuable friends'. Suharto, with the full backing of obscene capitalists like Thatcher, waded to power through rivers of blood, as more than a million people were slaughtered and the whole population was held in fear of their lives for over 30 years. In the genocide that decimated East Timor, Suharto's gestapo, known as Kopassus, gunned down innocent men, women, and children with British-supplied Heckler & Koch machine guns, fired from British-supplied Tactica 'riot control' vehicles and received military training in counter-terrorism techniques from the British SAS. Such were the levels of premeditated violence meted out by the Kopassus in East Timor, the elite Special Air Service Regiment of the Australian special forces ceased training with them.

7) The woman who ruthlessly and brutally ordered the sinking of the General Belgrano, to undermine impending peace talks and enter the Falklands War, to boost her flagging ratings at home. After being tracked for nearly 36 hours by the British nuclear submarine HMS Conqueror, the Belgrano was was sunk by three torpedoes on May 2nd, 1982, despite being well outside a 200-mile exclusion zone, and heading in the opposite direction from the Falklands. Nothing short of wanton pre-meditated mass murder, in order to facilitate a political goal, and cynically attempt to regenerate flagging ratings. War is VERY good for business, and Thatcher viciously and ruthlessly capitalised on this premise. If a few thousand Argentinian men need be needlessly slaughtered in the process, then so be it. The working classes did have some uses though, and to sustain her war for ratings, 258 British soldiers were sacrificed as cannon fodder. Sueing the British Government at the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg in July 2000, human rights lawyer Teresa Moya Dominguez, representing the families of the 323 murdered sailors, stated : "It is now the right moment in history for this. What we want fundamentally, is for the sinking of the General Belgrano to be recognized as a war crime."

8) The woman who allowed ten young men to starve themselves to death, by refusing to acknowledge the fact that they were imprisoned for their political beliefs, and for actions related to the political situation in Ireland. By trying to have them classed as common criminals - a tag no political prisoner has ever worn - she signed their death warrants. She did so freely, maliciously, willingly, and without afterthought, despite there being numerous opportunities to resolve the situation by alternative means. Before their lingering and painful deaths, for over four years the hunger-strikers were systematically, routinely and repeatedly brutalised, beaten, tortured, molested, and abused by hired sectarian thugs, who as agents of the British state security apparatus in Ireland, positively revelled in their role as Thatcher’s paid frontline thugs.

9) The woman who routinely used state-sponsored terrorism to assassinate Republican activists in Ireland (and other soveriegn territory), and who unilaterally acted as judge, jury, and executioner by covertly re-introducing the death penalty for those who dared to oppose British imperialism on Irish soil. The mere trivialities of due process were discarded, the law was circumvented, the military was used to police the nation, and summary execution was proscribed for anyone suspected of being a Republican. Events in the Grand Hotel, Brighton, in the early hours of the 12th October 1984, were to demonstrate to Thatcher, just how deep resentment towards her in Ireland ran. She would subsequently require protection from armed guards, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, for the rest of her wretched life.

10) Despite not wishing to blame the parent for the sins of the child - her ******* reprobate offspring. Mark Thatcher, a human scum-bucket arms dealer, who used his mother’s insidious connections to line his pockets, and who also financed a failed coup de tat in Equatoreal Guinea. Along with British upper class mercenaries Simon Mann and Nick Du Toit, Thatcher attempted to overthrow President Mbasogo, intent on seizing the country's vast natural oil and gas reserves. If successful, the coup would have installed opposition leader Severo Moto as the new President, in return for preferential oil rights to corporations affiliated to those involved with the coup. Greed, corruption and the conquest of power - the very ethos of the wicked old *******, whose demise the world should raise a glass to. And that’s before we get onto her pontificating obnoxious ******* of a daughter.

Hate is not an emotion I generally subscibe to, due to it's internicine destructiveness, but I can honestly and quite easily say that I hate, and have all of my thinking life, hated the vile entity that is and was Margaret Thatcher, with every single fibre of my being. She is singularly, the most hated person, I have ever expressed that particular emotion for, in my entire living memory, and most likely ever will be. Let us pray to God, we never see her likes again. Nov 28th 1990 was a joyous day for many, as the tear-faced old witch was stabbed in the back by her own kind, and she rode out of Downing St for the last time. Eleven and a half years of despotism were at an end. The Tories weren’t out – but at least old bastardface was.

**** You Thatcher. I genuinely hope you rot in Hell.
 
Margaret Thatcher took on the Republican Irish Scum, the Trade Unions and everything they stood for.
Bless you Maggie and feck all those who don't
 
Simmo, the post you have reprised reads like it was written by a first year politics student who was born after Thatcher left office. It's a lot of emotive drivel, littered with factual inaccuracies, and runs out of ideas so quickly that it descends into an attack on Thatchers family, rather than her policies.

I'm surprised that you would consider it worthy of regurgitation.

I confess, the depth of your hatred for Mrs T surprises me a little too - as does the fact that parties are being held to celebrate her death. Someone on Twitter posted that they liked the irony of people accusing Thatcher of lacking compassion.....as they danced on the grave of a dead 80 year-old woman.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I find it all a bit unseemly, tawdry and unnecessary.......especially when half those celebrating are too young to have the first clue what it was like to live through those years.
 
Your last paragraph sums it up for me - I've had texts from people who are nothing to so with the mining industry or the forces and some were babies when she was PM - my answer to all of them was "so why so much hate for a frail old lady? What did she do to you?" (I can sort of understand miners and forces being not that sad !)
The weirdest answer (from someone who wasn't there either and supports neither team involved!) was that he hates her because when hillsborough happened, she swept it under the carpet and blamed the hooligans....

I really worry about the next generation sometimes, so much hate....
 
I confess, the depth of your hatred for Mrs T surprises me a little too - as does the fact that parties are being held to celebrate her death. Someone on Twitter posted that they liked the irony of people accusing Thatcher of lacking compassion.....as they danced on the grave of a dead 80 year-old woman.

I take your point about compassion, but...it's what she would have wanted.

As for the depth of my hatred, I rather suspect that you have chosen to block out some of the memories. I grew up in the shadow of Ravenscraig and will never forget.
 
Simmo, the post you have reprised reads like it was written by a first year politics student who was born after Thatcher left office. It's a lot of emotive drivel, littered with factual inaccuracies, and runs out of ideas so quickly that it descends into an attack on Thatchers family, rather than her policies.

I'm surprised that you would consider it worthy of regurgitation.

I confess, the depth of your hatred for Mrs T surprises me a little too - as does the fact that parties are being held to celebrate her death. Someone on Twitter posted that they liked the irony of people accusing Thatcher of lacking compassion.....as they danced on the grave of a dead 80 year-old woman.

Maybe I'm just getting old, but I find it all a bit unseemly, tawdry and unnecessary.......especially when half those celebrating are too young to have the first clue what it was like to live through those years.

Couldn't agree more - so many weren't alive then and can have no idea what it was like. That so many of these comments come from women amazes me - again, they tend to be too young to know what it was like back then and for a young female teenager, she was a kick up the arse that you could manipulate a situation to work for you, regardless of gender. Didn't agree with many of her policies but she was democratically elected, so blaming just one person is plain stupid for events back then but of course, we now live in the blame navel-gazing culture, so no surprise there.
 
I take your point about compassion, but...it's what she would have wanted.

:D Maybe so, Simmo, maybe so.

As for the depth of my hatred, I rather suspect that you have chosen to block out some of the memories. I grew up in the shadow of Ravenscraig and will never forget.

It's an age thing, I reckon. The older I get, the less I hate, and the more I realise that it doesn't matter who is in charge, because someone is getting it in the ass somewhere regardless.
 
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