Not So Glorious Goodwood

Grey said:
At present Frankel is a great miler. Even a very great one. Can he show a greater range?

I think he will have no problem displaying the same greatness at 10f but it's not proven yet. There is also a good chance he could win top races at even 12f but that is much more speculative.

But for the time being he is a miler only.
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So the point being made here is basically one of 'versatility'?

Let's stick to the same era and say that of the current crop of group horses Camelot looks like being nailed on to become the next TC winner. People have cited his 'greatness' over Frankel because he has versatility Ask yourself a question. Had he have been born in the same year as Frankel would Camelot have claimed the TC? The answer IMHO is not on your Nellie! He wouldn't have got close enough to Frankel over a mile to have heard his hoofbeats. So in such circumstances he wouldn't have earned the mantle of being completely versatile. He'd have been deemed beatable over a mile. Chances are the same could be said of any horse in living memory. If we've never seen a horse that would have been capable of besting Frankel over 8 furlongs then in a level appreciation of 'greatness' no horse has been truly versatile.

If therefore Frankel is the greatest miler we've ever seen I don't see how there can be a limit on his greatness.
 
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I take your point about Camelot, I think connections have mapped out a long-defunct Triple Crown because they would prefer to avoid Frankel.

The horse I have in mind that has demonstrated versatility, consistency and greatness is Sea The Stars. Frankel is the better miler, can he be a great horse at other distances too? I think so, but it is not yet proven.
 
Grey said:
At present Frankel is a great miler. Even a very great one. Can he show a greater range?

I think he will have no problem displaying the same greatness at 10f but it's not proven yet. There is also a good chance he could win top races at even 12f but that is much more speculative.

But for the time being he is a miler only.
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I wouldn't argue with that. Sea The Stars was a brilliant horse and of course displayed great versatility. Was he the best we've seen at any of those distances though? I think that is questionable.

Frankel on the other hand may well be capable of winning between 6 and 10 furlongs at least. That would I feel also cement his own claims to versatility.

What really sets him aside though is the fact that at a mile he may well be the best horse that has existed, he's certainly the best miler I've ever seen. (And plenty of old hacks around the town here, myself included, will argue that a mile is the true test for a thoroughbred race horse.)

To be the very best horse in history, or even amongst a tiny handful of the best horses in history, surely denotes greatness at a level above and beyond the everyday usage of the term?
 
Whilst I wouldn't agree that Frankel winning the Sussex would be boring, I would rather see him step up or down in trip and race against different horses.

For me, that isn't about taking him out of his comfort zone, or trying to create some sort of hurdle for Frankel to overcome in order to enhance my viewing pleasure - it's about seeing him beat the best at every distance. I don't believe that 1m2f, or 6f would be a hurdle. The differing ability of the animals that he would face would be the hurdle.

I'd love to see him finish in the Arc where I wouldn't be so confident of victory - but I'd be delighted to see them try. Not so that people can say "this horse was not just the best miler in history, but also tremendously versatile" but so that people can say "this horse was the best horse in history."
 
In some ways i'd rather see Frankel over 6f than 10f. It would settle the Black Caviar argument once and for all I suspect he would destroy a G1 field over a stiff 6f, particularly if Queally employed the tactics used in the guineas. Over 10f they will ride him more cagily and I doubt we'll see as many fireworks.
 
Goodwood isn't all about Frankel though.

The Lennox is surely not that far away from being promoted to Group 1 level. It's recent roll of honour pisses all over the joke races we have at that level over 6 and 5f.

The Nassau could be a really good betting race if the Fugue and Izzy Top run. I'm confident I can find a good Frenchie to beat them.

The handicaps are top quality.
 
Looking forward to the BF Mile. Bridgefield could run well now back into some form after a **** poor run at Ascot if he ran here. Still havn't forgotten the way he got beat at Goodwood last year when eased down in the final furlong after being a well backed 5/1 shot under Frankie.
 
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Lots of good points made folks and for once an enjoyable discussion without the usual internet vitriol. Good stuff! :)
 
Bar the Bull said:
Question for you Scaramanga. You are the owner of Frankel after his Queen Anne romp.

What route would you take?
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Well stepping back a season I'd have run him in the Derby and jumping forward to this season I'd make his main target the Breeder's Cup or the Arc.

Unfortunately a few minutes up and down Walton on the Naze's prom as a nipper on a reluctant donkey is as close to a horse as I'm likely to get! :D

(Actually I've helped out in a number of Newmarket stables and studs in the past but truth be told horses make me nervous. A curse! :( )
 
Question for you Scaramanga. You are the owner of Frankel after his Queen Anne romp.

What route would you take?
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I always go for the A332 out west of the course and then down to the M3. Much better than going the other way through Staines
 
Anyone know what the maximum field size is for the Betfred Mile? I'm very keen on Bronze Angel and will be wading in if he gets a nice draw. Worried about him getting in though.
 
Quite keen on Madam Macie on Friday now I've had a better look at the race. She hasn't been running in the type of races that a Bronze Angel has in terms of big fields and prize money, but does seem to be a better horse right handed based on her two wide margin victories at Hamilton and Carlisle in June, which may indicate she's any amount of pounds and lengths better going around a track like Goodwood. A dark horse for sure.
 
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Trade Commissioner's chance is obvious but his price is mental in such a draw biased race. If he's drawn wide he'd be an awesome lay as I can't see him drifting much past 6s given the hype.
 
In the Gordon's King George stakes on Friday, Beyond Desire looks one to take seriously. 2/3 so far this season, the Caladonia Lady win looks good as that horse should have a good future and is only a 3yo, nice break since poor run in France last time and the Roger Varian horse should be well capable of picking up another group race before the end of the season. Very straightforward and likes to take care of business from the front which I like (has improved markedly since front running tactics have been adopted). Could blow these away. 20's for Nunthorpe might look biggish after Friday me thinks.
 
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After seeing Pastorius win today and how the German Derby form is working, I couldn't resist to back Girolamo for the Gordon. It is a case of sustance againts hype for me. I will be surprised if either Gosden's or Cecil's horses are up to that level of form.
 
He's certainly an interesting runner. I like the Gosden horse but with his trainer in such immense form he will probably go off too short. He could follow Giofra and Danedream into the winners enclosure at bigger prices than their form warranted.
 
Euronymous said:
Trade Commissioner's chance is obvious but his price is mental in such a draw biased race. If he's drawn wide he'd be an awesome lay as I can't see him drifting much past 6s given the hype.
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Can you expand on this please for thicko's like me. What do you mean by draw biased raced, and are other races over the same distance there biased, or is it because of how quickly they'll go with it being a top handicap.

I fancy a horse drawn high in the first race on Tuesday over a just under 10F, should I be backing it or what...I'm clueless with draw biases.
 
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Marble said:
Can you expand on this please for thicko's like me. What do you mean by draw biased raced, and are other races over the same distance there biased, or is it because of how quickly they'll go with it being a top handicap.
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Over a mile at Goodwood you need to be drawn as close to the rails as possible because they go round the turn fairly early and if you're stuck out wide you have to go further and will encounter traffic problems. Ransom Note was a short priced favourite for this a couple of years ago and I place laid him as he was drawn 18/19. He never got into it.

I wouldn't so much about a race over 10f. It's still not ideal though.
 
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Right, thanks for that. Do you want to be drawn low for shorter distances as well Euro?
 
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