Novice Chasers 2016/2017

Tanlic, we can discuss Denman and KS form (or others can insult me for doing it) but why do you have to go back so many generations? The thoroughbreds have improved considerably, the training regime etc, unless we've been around at that time bringing in horses like Arkle in the discussion is futile. Also what needs to be considered is back then handicaps were the premier races and so when giving weight away and still win on the bridle thats going to automatically bring your rating up. Nowadays the graded contents won't allow big margin wins with big weight allowances so the rating are normally going to be more stacked. Chasers like KS or SS who breached those barriers are commendable for reaching 190+ ratings in these circumstances. But one could argue that could giving weight away to class horses and still win by a big margin was even harder to achieve but on the flip coin they got that cloud ratings that are unthinkable in modern times.
 
You brought up worldbeaters and obviously Arkle springs to mind. I was brought up on Arkle laddie and actually saw him run.

Arkle is recognised as the greatest steeplechaser of all time and Donald Trump was just made Time magazines man of the year (Really as I type)

I've always argued beating some of the moles Arkle beat giving them weight is alot easier than beating Sizing Europe 19 lengths or winning a King George by a distance for a grade 1 winner.

Arkle had sweat fanny adams to run against that was half the problem and his rating just kept rising.1964-massey-ferguson-gold-cup-arkle_360_8c98243bff77ae4daa5400090a11e4a4.jpg

One really good horse did emerge and but for walking through the last would have beaten Arkle at least 5 lengths..........he was cantering all over him going to the last.

Because of Buona Notte I refuse to believe he could give the weight to Kauto round Kempton it's cloud cuckoo land material
 
Getting back to the present I see Sir Anthony......much prefer AP.....saying don't tackle Cue Card he would keep them apart.



I'm sure he reads posts on here to check out our ideas, copies them and gets paid for it :lol:
 
granger said:
ADO will be prepped for March no doubts. I was taken by CI at weekend though. Maybe the form will stink long term but if he stays and travels that well, he will be some tool.
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It's definitely a race I'll be keeping on the right side of for the rest of the season. I was particularly taken by ADO who ran a very eye catching race.

The novice chasers in general this season look an exceptional crop.
 
Bizarre run from Different Gravey. Has to be something wrong there.

Nice to see Whisper back though. Brilliant leap at the last.
 
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Never going ran like a drain and jumped very badly after pecking at the one in front of the stands - imagine the end of most place pots .

Whisper travelled conspicuously well and was the pick of the paddock too
 
Arkle had 12-10 for starters, 12-7 plus a mandatory 3lb for winning the Hennessy a week earlier.
Some say every pound carried over 12 stone counts as 2; does every pound over 12-7 count as extra again?
Buona Notte carried 10-12, Flying Wild 10-6; BN slipped at the fence on top of the hill and lost his hind quarters after jumping the last.
This i vividly remember as i was 2 months old at the time and had little else to be worrying about !
 
Looking forward to the beginners chase at Punchestown tomorrow. I think American Tom will probably win, but 6-4 is short enough so will take a chance on Woodlands Opera at around 5-1
 
edgt said:
Arkle had 12-10 for starters, 12-7 plus a mandatory 3lb for winning the Hennessy a week earlier.
Some say every pound carried over 12 stone counts as 2; does every pound over 12-7 count as extra again?
Buona Notte carried 10-12, Flying Wild 10-6; BN slipped at the fence on top of the hill and lost his hind quarters after jumping the last.
This i vividly remember as i was 2 months old at the time and had little else to be worrying about !
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:lol: It's actually no surprise that he beat Arkle looking back. He won the Supreme then the Henry VIII Novice Chase beating none other than the brilliant Dunkirk and if that wasn't enough he steps up to 3 miles and kicks Gold Cup Winner to be Fort Leney into touch in the RSA.

They argue the Mackeson was too short for Arkle if it was you could argue it was also too short for an RSA. Many people blamed Jonny Haine for showboating and reckon if he'd kicked on 2 out when he had them all at it he'd have won 10 lengths.


Arkle had an Irish Grand National, A gold Cup and 2 Hennessy's under his belt while Buona Notte was a mere novice in comparison,

If he had not died of a heart attack in a race at Newbury he imo would have turned out to be Arkle and Flyingbolt's biggest rivals and easily have been within a stone of them.

If I am correct he'd have been rated about 200.....the mind boggles.
 
Perpetual said:
Looking forward to the beginners chase at Punchestown tomorrow. I think American Tom will probably win, but 6-4 is short enough so will take a chance on Woodlands Opera at around 5-1
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I fancy American Tom but he is short so I fancy a Mullins treble which pays about 5/1 American Tom, Douvan and Djackadam the latter worries me but what the heck
 
I see Mullins has a novice mare, Listen Dear, going for her 6th consecutive win....3rd over fences......makes you wonder where he gets them
 
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And he was receiving 26lb over a trip half a mile short of Arkle's best - not your strongest post I suggest
 
Dunno, granger. I thought American Tom did it nicely myself, considering he had been off the track for a year, jumped left throughout, and was basically running about all over the place.

Gangster was a smart novice hurdler last year (rated mid-140's), and it was no mean feat to give him a (relatively) easy beating. Improvement is almost certain in one so inexperienced, and having taken 16/1 for the JLT before the race, I confess I'm reasonably happy with my position.

One note of caution is that American Tom does appear to be difficult to train. That was only his third start under Rules, and his outings have come at the pace of once every year, to date. Some positive news about how he came out of the race, would not go amiss.
 
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Ardross said:
And he was receiving 26lb over a trip half a mile short of Arkle's best - not your strongest post I suggest
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I have come across this argument before and to be frank it stems from media nonsense.

Arkle won 8 from 9 consecutive races from 1.6f to 2m4f.... He also won over 2m4f at Gowran Park 5 weeks before the Mackeson....did you know that? It never gets mentioned

The trip was never a worry for Arkle who said boasted could win a 1m4f flat race, at least not until he lost and then it was the trip the weight the ground and anything else they could defend their hero with,,,,Nowadays it would of course be the Russians hacked the stable. lol

Buona Notte never won at the trip but went on to win the same race as Arkle did The Broadway Chase, now the RSA, but they never say it wasn't his best trip.

No worries the fairy tale and the 2012 will continue when we are all gone.
 
Grasshopper said:
Dunno, granger. I thought American Tom did it nicely myself, considering he had been off the track for a year, jumped left throughout, and was basically running about all over the place.

Gangster was a smart novice hurdler last year (rated mid-140's), and it was no mean feat to give him a (relatively) easy beating. Improvement is almost certain in one so inexperienced, and having taken 16/1 for the JLT before the race, I confess I'm reasonably happy with my position.

One note of caution is that American Tom does appear to be difficult to train. That was only his third start under Rules, and his outings have come at the pace of once every year, to date. Some positive news about how he came out of the race, would not go amiss.
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Gangster will need a lot further for sure, 3m minimum

In fairness to American Tom, after being off so long, it was a decent showing but shorter than Coney Island - can't have that
 
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In relation to American Tom, he's only run over 2m to date, is it purely due to Min in the same colours that he is assumed to be aimed at the JLT. If there was no Min, surely it would be all Arkle talk? Is there evidence in his breeding that a step up in trip is likely to suit?
I just wonder is there any chance that Min could be the one to go for the JLT... Is there anything in his breeding to suggest this?


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I thought American Tom looked like he had tons of improvement to come but on the negative side he looked more erratic than erotic.

He looks very gangly and immature but he could change given time which may be the plan........Perhaps the reason we have not seen too much of him?????.
 
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