Novice Hurdlers 2015/16

SKY BET SUPREME NOVICES´ HURDLE (Grade 1) (CLASS 1) (4yo+):

DISTANCE: 2m87y Old:

The opening race of the Cheltenham Festival sees the first of the Willie Mullins 'big guns' heading the market; Min is a current best priced 7/4 and as low as 5/4 with a few layers. He was beaten in his two starts in his native France but his obvious talent has been unleashed by his current handler and he has won both starts in Ireland with consummate ease. It's difficult to gauge just what he achieved but the second of those victories came in a Grade Two and the well beaten third, Ball D'Arc, followed up in a Listed Novice race at Punchestown and a Grade Two at Naas. Min is a slick jumper, and his best work at home is said to be done on better ground, so if there are drying conditions they are unlikely to inconvenience him. The yard have won the last three renewals of this race with Vautour (2014) and Douvan (2015) achieving it without coming under much pressure. Min is a keen going sort but he looks to have a serious engine and taking time to settle didn't harm Douvan's chances when he took this race last season. Educating a horse and teaching them how to 'race/battle' used to be an advantage in these Championship races but horses from this yard are re-writing the rules. Given the events of the past two seasons it wouldn't be a surprise to see Min stride up the hill in splendid isolation but it's arguable whether his form so far is worthy of such a short price. His odds mean there are some very good horses in opposition at tempting prices and the one that appeals most at this stage is Tombstone.

He holds entries for both the Supreme Novices and the Neptune Novices (21 furlongs) but, having raced over 16-18 furlongs in his four starts over hurdles to date, it's the Supreme which looks to be the way that connections are leaning. Tombstone's owners have A Toi Phil (Willie Mullins) also entered in the same two races and he has run over 20 furlongs in two of his three races over hurdles so he seems to be the logical choice for the longer event. Tombstone goes to Cheltenham having won his second start over hurdles but being beaten into second in his last two outings. That is not the typical profile of a possible winner of the Grade One opener but it doesn't tell the whole story. His defeat on his penultimate start came at the hands of Long Dog (Willie Mullins) when he was beaten three quarters of a length in a Grade One over 16 furlongs at Leopardstown. Long Dog had the advantage of six previous starts over hurdles and it showed as Tombstone ran a bit too freely and lacked the fluency of the winner. Tombstone also found himself short of room entering the straight, but for which he would've arguably beaten the winner; looking the better horse and long term prospect in the process. His defeat last time out came over 18 furlongs at the same track and it was a performance that raised question marks over his resolution and ability to win at Grade One level. That could be an unfair analysis. They began racing a fair way from home in very deep ground, and Tombstone did come under pressure earlier than normal, but he responded to get to the front over the final hurdle before giving way to a horse who looked a stronger stayer. He travelled well for much of the race and he could be a whole different proposition dropped back to two miles on better ground.

Tombstone has plenty of soft/heavy ground influences on both sides of his breeding but his Dam was a winner on fast ground and his GrandDam was closely related to a four time winner on faster ground. He doesn't have the action of a horse who needs testing conditions as a prerequisite to producing his best and, if drying conditions prevail at Cheltenham, his chances may be enhanced rather than compromised. His owners have always been bullish about taking on Min and they do have a line into their chances, being the owners of the aforementioned Ball D'Arc who is also with the same Trainer and also entered in this race. However Tombstone appears to be their number one choice and he looks worth an e/w consideration in the win market.

Selection: Tombstone - 1 pt e/w. Available at 14/1. (Bet365, 888Sport, Boylesports, 32Red, Betfair. 1/4 odds first 3)
 
Am I right in thinking Long Dog doesn't go for the race? It looks like he has the second-highest figure although it also looks like they're rethinking the 158 he was allotted a couple of runs back. That appeared to add up and it looks like they might letting one unimpressive subsequent win dictate his new mark.

...

I'd love to know the plan(s) for Bachasson, another Mullins entry. He went up to an OR of 154 - the same as both Altior and Buveur D'Air - for running Long Dog (158) to a neck, after which Willie Mullins strongly hinted at Bachasson's being the better. Those figures might be a tad high as they've since been revised downwards but what if they were right? And if they are wrong are they likely to be wrong by an awful lot? Anyway, I'm prepared to pay to find out so I hoovered up the small amount on offer on the exchange with a view possibly to laying it off at less than half the price in due course. Without info from within the stable it's all guesswork.

I need to double check this. According to the RP site Long Dog was never ORd at 158 so Bachasson couldn't have been on 154. I'm sure those are the figures in the printed form book but, as I say, I'll check again.
 
I have Altior on 154p and Min 152P, slightly favour the later but former is an interesting EW
I think it is between this pair.

Yorkhill will go to the neptune.
 
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well there's a surprise...ardy you should take the 7/1 on 4 or less Mullins winners at chelt because you seem to read form lines which conclude they will all get beat
 
I've crunched a few numbers for the Supreme.

Altior still emerges miles clear of this field to the point where I'd reckon even money was a value bet. Henderson will probably have improved him further with the race in mind and I genuinely fancy him to be better suited to Cheltenham than Kempton.

Am I right in thinking Long Dog doesn't go for the race? It looks like he has the second-highest figure although it also looks like they're rethinking the 158 he was allotted a couple of runs back. That appeared to add up and it looks like they might letting one unimpressive subsequent win dictate his new mark.

Buveur D'Air has the same OR as Altior but I'm donald-ducked if I can see why. Sure the horse he beat two runs ago hacked up twice since but those races were very small beer and the winner was very long oddds-on.

Ball D'Arc is touted as having franked Min's form but even with the new form under his belt Ball D'Arc's new OR of 135 leaves Min on about 150 plus the ease of victory. In fact, Ball D'Arc only went up to 131 for that race and next time, in receipt of weight from a horse rated a pound below him, he didn't win by much although not too hard pressed to do so. This Min may well be the greatest thing since sliced bread but no amount of number crunching on my part can get him near Altior.

I'd love to know the plan(s) for Bachasson, another Mullins entry. He went up to an OR of 154 - the same as both Altior and Buveur D'Air - for running Long Dog (158) to a neck, after which Willie Mullins strongly hinted at Bachasson's being the better. Those figures might be a tad high as they've since been revised downwards but what if they were right? And if they are wrong are they likely to be wrong by an awful lot? Anyway, I'm prepared to pay to find out so I hoovered up the small amount on offer on the exchange with a view possibly to laying it off at less than half the price in due course. Without info from within the stable it's all guesswork.

But if my figure for Altior is right - and I think it is - he's as good as past the post.

You probably would get about 50% of those at Seven barrows to agree with you and the other 50% saying no way.

Who rides what will tell us nothing and they are both on the same mark because the handicapper took into account the NJH factor, the fact Buveur D'Air won so easily 2 races back from a horse who has won twice since plus he finished ahead of Altoir and right up Barter Hill's backside.

Altior hasn't exactly been taking on world beaters. Open Eagle got stuffed by a 137 rated horse then won a pig of a race at odds on

Altior beat Charlie Maan's Murray Mint a long way who won next time but you wouldn't have a clue if he was even race fit in Altior's race.

Maputo had won some minor events and was racing off 147 when they finished neck and neck Toombstone is rated 147 so beating him wouldn't guarantee getting you in the winners enclosure IMO.

Really there is no outstanding form in the race only horses with loads of potential and it's which horse has showed the most promise that one should be backing.
It has been said NJH favours the chances of Buveur D'Air the good news is Nico thinks Altior is better but then Fehily says he's talking shyte.

This was the same when Sprinter Sacre and Spirit Son ran in the race Nicky was adamant Spirit Son was the better horse while Barry was more keen on Sprinter Sacre but NJH told him to ride Spirit Son.

Turned out neither of them won by Spirit Son went on to beat Cue Card out of sight at Aintree.

So if NJH thinks Buveur D'Air is the better horse which is rumoured then who are we to argue.

For me it's all down to full filling the potential show and Min and Buveur D'Air have shown most potential wheras Altior is much more exposed and looks very beatable if you look at his last visit to Cheltenham. That is no where near good enough to be winning a Supreme.

Another thing that puts me off Altior is the way Open Eagle stopped to nothing so far from home at Kempton. One minute he was cruisng looking all over the winner the next he stopped like shot.

When that happens you can get a real false sense of how good a horse is.

For me there's a right bet just now and that's to dutch Min and Buveur D'Air which is about 11/8.

I'l be surprised if Min doesn't go off at 5/4 or less on the day.
 
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You probably would get about 50% of those at Seven barrows to agree with you and the other 50% saying no way.

Who rides what will tell us nothing and they are both on the same mark because the handicapper took into account the NJH factor, the fact Buveur D'Air won so easily 2 races back from a horse who has won twice since plus he finished ahead of Altoir and right up Barter Hill's backside.

Altior hasn't exactly been taking on world beaters. Open Eagle got stuffed by a 137 rated horse then won a pig of a race at odds on

Altior beat Charlie Maan's Murray Mint a long way who won next time but you wouldn't have a clue if he was even race fit in Altior's race.

Maputo had won some minor events and was racing off 147 when they finished neck and neck Toombstone is rated 147 so beating him wouldn't guarantee getting you in the winners enclosure IMO.

Really there is no outstanding form in the race only horses with loads of potential and it's which horse has showed the most promise that one should be backing.
It has been said NJH favours the chances of Buveur D'Air the good news is Nico thinks Altior is better but then Fehily says he's talking shyte.

This was the same when Sprinter Sacre and Spirit Son ran in the race Nicky was adamant Spirit Son was the better horse while Barry was more keen on Sprinter Sacre but NJH told him to ride Spirit Son.

Turned out neither of them won by Spirit Son went on to beat Cue Card out of sight at Aintree.

So if NJH thinks Buveur D'Air is the better horse which is rumoured then who are we to argue.

For me it's all down to full filling the potential show and Min and Buveur D'Air have shown most potential wheras Altior is much more exposed and looks very beatable if you look at his last visit to Cheltenham. That is no where near good enough to be winning a Supreme.

Another thing that puts me off Altior is the way Open Eagle stopped to nothing so far from home at Kempton. One minute he was cruisng looking all over the winner the next he stopped like shot.

When that happens you can get a real false sense of how good a horse is.

For me there's a right bet just now and that's to dutch Min and Buveur D'Air which is about 11/8.

I'l be surprised if Min doesn't go off at 5/4 or less on the day.

Re Open Eagle - it's almost as they he ran like they had another day in mind, maybe the 18th March at Approx 16:40!
 
The Neptune looks a fine edition this year.

yanworth. 160p
a toi phil. 148P
yorkhill. 150p
bleu et rouge 151+ g?
long dog 152+t



albert barlett
main ones

shantou village. 150p
barters hill. 149+
up for review. 153+
 
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Altior hasn't exactly been taking on world beaters. Open Eagle got stuffed by a 137 rated horse then won a pig of a race at odds on

You surely can't mean Thomas Hobson. You try too hard with these theories, like you're trying to shoehorn your selections into a boot that's a size too small.
 
The Neptune looks a fine edition this year.

yanworth. 160p
a toi phil. 148P
yorkhill. 150p
bleu et rouge 151+ g?
long dog 152+t



albert barlett
main ones

shantou village. 150p
barters hill. 149+
up for review. 153+

Where did you get the mark for A Toi Phil?

I cant see an OR for him.
 
You surely can't mean Thomas Hobson. You try too hard with these theories, like you're trying to shoehorn your selections into a boot that's a size too small.

So you think what? Thomas Hobson is a 2 miler with bags of speed? He entered in the Albert Bartlett and would be tailed off in the Supreme.

Open Eagle is no great shapes and Altoir would have to do better than beat him to convince ne he can get anywhere near Min who look like an absolute machine,

My point is there's not one horse in the race you could say stands out on form.

For anyone to tell me they can work out a rating on the evidence at hand that puts 2 horses a world apart with absolutely nothing linking them has a head full of wee wheels.

All we have is our eyes and mines tells me this is a 2 horse race between Min and Buveur D'Air

Of course I could be proven wrong but at least I am not telling people ON MY FIGURES I pulled out my ass
 
There you go again, Tanlic, rubbishing anyone who puts in the hours of empirical analysis to come up with a numerical interpretation of the data they are analysing.

It's like saying Vauxhall makes good cars because they look good (to some people). I was going to use Ford as the example but they have improved over the years.

EC1, for example, along with several others, have been kind enough to share their findings on this forum for long enough and so long as their findings agree with what your eyes tell you you're okay with that. As soon as there's any discrepancy, everyone else is spouting shite.

The figures quoted by anyone on here are very rarely pulled out of anyone's arse and deserve more respect than you give them. But the forum will be all the poorer when they decide it isn't worth the bother and everyone else will know who's to blame.
 
Tailed off? TH has more speed about him than say a Zaidpour, and that horse wasn't beaten out of sight in the greatest Novice Hurdle of all time.

I think the front three standout, but the price differentials are off and are based on Mullins record in the race the last few years. Obviously that has a certain amount of justification, but not 6/4 9/2 8/1.
 
The figures quoted by anyone on here are very rarely pulled out of anyone's arse and deserve more respect than you give them. But the forum will be all the poorer when they decide it isn't worth the bother and everyone else will know who's to blame.

Totally. I don't do ratings myself - I rely on video form study and instinct mostly, but I do admire and respect the work figure guys put in.
 
we all have different ways at this game...i've tried every angle i can glean over the last 40 years...spent half a lifetime looking at the game... I have found through experience that making my figures is the best for me. Euro does something i'm no good at as does Gigilo..they watch and learn from videos..i watch em too but just for making figures..but spotting what they spot ain't my strength...i respect their views though..even though its not my strong area.

now..if i were starting out again. right now or last week.....i'd be so happy to know what others have tried and found to be good or bad. I can guarantee one thing..when you analysed racing 30 years ago..you were a pretty lone soldier..you could buy a few books..but at end of day it was trial and error. I used to keep every pullout form handicap book paper and would use them week to week trying to find angles..without recourse to being able to contact other punters who were like most of us on here..took the game a bit more seriously than most. It could take a long time to find out an angle you thought was good wasn't really that good..it took time..no one saved me time by telling me it wouldn't work long term. Internet now means we can save that time..thats something we should really appreciate.

I'd have given anything to have what we have now..and particularly being able to chew the cud over methods ideas form reading etc..all the stuff i used to do just using trial end error..believe me..you can waste a lot of time when you are in isolation studing this game..and it was isolation because the chance of any of your mates being remotely interested to the same degree was remote.

The problem i have found through the years..and i been reading and posting on forums now since 2000..is that some people waste forums..and waste the opportunity to share or learn. What a shame that is when you think how it used to be.

Tanlic..we not in a betting shop in the 70's now where loudest voice or biggest wad ruled roost...we are in a lot better place...we all have views and figures or whatever it is that motivates us to post...we will disagree or agree on all sorts of things..but its not going encourage anyone to post if they think their view is going to met with derison.

I personally don't want to spend time putting together hopefully posts that might provoke thought for someone to come on and say i pulled that from my arse and i also talk out of it. ..i'm a jerk etc..i can get all that off of our lass:)

I've no issue with whoever thinks what i post is sh1t..thats up to the reader to decide..but to constantly be belittling people's efforts is not going to make the forum better is it?

I think about people who read this forum..maybe not been in game long..not posted much on forums...just want a bit of encouragement to take part..but then they read some of what you say to people and think..ooooh i don't want that aimed at me.

Its nearly every day now recently you come on deriding someones view or effort spent ...why?..it doesn't enhance owt..just deters people.
 
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we all have different ways at this game...i've tried every angle i can glean over the last 40 years...spent half a lifetime looking at the game... I have found through experience that making my figures is the best for me

now..if i were starting out again..and i lived in the present..i'd be so happy to know what others have tried and found to be good or bad. I can guarantee anyone one thing..when you analysed racing 30 years ago..you were a pretty lone soldier..you could buy a few books..but at end of day it was trial and error. I used to keep every pullout form handicap book paper and would use them week to week trying to find angles..without recourse to being able to contact other punters who were like most of us on here..took the game a bit more seriously than most.

I'd have given anything to have what we have now..and particularly being able to chew the cud over methods ideas form reading etc..all the stuff i used to do just using trial end error..believe me..you can waste a lot of time when you are in isolation studing this game..and it was isolation because the chance of any of your mates being remotely interested to the same degree was remote.

Yep, very similar experience here, EC1, except that I tried Raceform Interactive a couple of years ago but ditched it as I find it much easier to read the hard copy.

If I was as good 30 years ago as I am now I'd be seriously thinking of going pro but at my age it's a hobby and a mental exercise that pays for holidays etc. Unlike your good self, I can't be arsed with the midweek stuff. It's the big Saturday races and festivals that get my juices going.
 
we all have different ways at this game...i've tried every angle i can glean over the last 40 years...spent half a lifetime looking at the game... I have found through experience that making my figures is the best for me

now..if i were starting out again..and i lived in the present..i'd be so happy to know what others have tried and found to be good or bad. I can guarantee anyone one thing..when you analysed racing 30 years ago..you were a pretty lone soldier..you could buy a few books..but at end of day it was trial and error. I used to keep every pullout form handicap book paper and would use them week to week trying to find angles..without recourse to being able to contact other punters who were like most of us on here..took the game a bit more seriously than most.

I'd have given anything to have what we have now..and particularly being able to chew the cud over methods ideas form reading etc..all the stuff i used to do just using trial end error..believe me..you can waste a lot of time when you are in isolation studing this game..and it was isolation because the chance of any of your mates being remotely interested to the same degree was remote.

Yep, very similar experience here, EC1, except that I tried Raceform Interactive a couple of years ago but ditched it as I find it much easier to read the hard copy.

If I was as good 30 years ago as I am now I'd be seriously thinking of going pro but at my age it's a hobby and a mental exercise that pays for holidays etc. Unlike your good self, I can't be arsed with the midweek stuff. It's the big Saturday races and festivals that get my juices going.
 
well there's a surprise...ardy you should take the 7/1 on 4 or less Mullins winners at chelt because you seem to read form lines which conclude they will all get beat

That is an unjustified remark . I made the point in particular about Min's potential . The reverses Mullins had at Cheltenham and Doncaster on trials day show that not all his runners are invincible and many of them have very short prices based on reputation rather than form . On form , for the reasons DO convincingly explains , Altior has achieved most so far . Does that mean he will definitely beat Min ? No far from it -as Mullins horses generally peak at the Festival and show much better form than they have before - Vautour 's spectacular win in the JLT being the most obvious recent example . Min is all about potential and his price is based on that and his trainer and not on his form .
 
you mean its based on your reading of form Ardross...there is no universal right or wrong about reading or interpretting form.

you could give 10 people a form book...ask them to rate one race up..and they would all have differing views of "form" for that race based on past performance.

There is no "definately beats" in the game. depending on how you read form..Min can look better or inferior to Altior..neither view is cast iron.

On my reading..Min doesn't have to improve at all to beat Altior..someone else will think he does..neither view is the ultimate form reading answer. Form is read differently by each individual
 
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Well said EC1 and DO. I, for one, really appreciate the time and effort you chaps put in to your posts. The forum is so much better for your input.

I second that, it obviously takes a lot of time & effort to crunch those numbers & most people here are appreciative of your efforts. Keep the good work going & thanks for sharing them on the forum. Pay no attention to anyone who degrades them because it doesn't suit their argument.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I couldn't agree more. There have been very many times when both DO and EC have highlighted horses much sooner than I've picked them, and I like to think I work pretty hard at it. The amount of work they and plenty of others put in could easily be something they keep to themselves, and I for one wouldn't want a few detractors to deter them from doing so.

We don't have to agree and debate is healthy, but civility costs nothing. There's a big difference between humorous comment and having a go unnecessarily. And whilst it's hard to erase history or forget previous spats, there's a fine line between being 'too harsh' and 'too sensitive', and 'vigorous debate' becoming 'having a go' when things inevitably start to become personal. Both have been the case in recent times.

It's the unnecessary personal stuff that's unedifying. And quite frankly whether it's because of a bad day, a row with the wife, too much to drink, or whatever, it's a bit pathetic.

Anyway there's an easy solution. I have a couple of people on ignore because they're just downright rude and not worth the effort. In fact come to think of it I couldn't even tell you whether they still post.
 
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