Novice Hurdlers 21/22

Just out of curiosity, I did a very superficial comparison of this year's Tolworth and last year's, won by Metier.

I mentioned before that the ones CH beat were rated in the 120s.

Metier beat Shakem Up'Arry (OR130) by the same distance - 12 lengths - with other horses in the 130s further back. Last year's race was much stronger in depth, based on ORs though not necessarily on potential.
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Both times the ground was described as Heavy. Metier ran the trip 12.6 seconds faster than Constitution Hill. That's almost a furlong.

Just sayin'...

(It's possible the race bottomed Metier but very unlikely to have impacted upon CH as he was really just sprinting after dawdling for 12f.)
 
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The big difference between those races is Metier finished the race like a tired horse, CH did not. The ratings, the times - no relevance.
 
Euronymous said:
The big difference between those races is Metier finished the race like a tired horse, CH did not. The ratings, the times - no relevance.
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That's exactly the point I'm trying to make, Euro. Metier's race was deeper and much more strongly run hence he was entitled to finish tired. CH won a jog-and-sprint event and in those circumstances it's much easier for a class horse to sprint away from inferiors thereby looking impressive. My theory is that it got to Metier which explains his disappointing form since, but it won't stop me backing Metier in the Betfair :lol:
 
Got to be honest with you, DO……I reckon Constitution Hill would hammer a horse like Shakemup’Harry so far, you’d need a telescope to find him.
 
Grasshopper said:
Got to be honest with you, DO……I reckon Constitution Hill would hammer a horse like Shakemup’Harry so far, you’d need a telescope to find him.
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Maybe but until he goes and does it it's still opinion and speculation. They're unlikely ever to meet.

I probably agree, though. I'm just saying the nuts and bolts of the form amount to much the same between Metier and CH.
 
Let me be frank here..DO is clueless when it comes to these things.

First off it depends on which description of the ground you are using.

I tend to ignore the Racing Post who put the ground up before the race rather than after

Metier actually ran on Soft Ground and this is easy to confirm by looking at the 2 mile Handicap Hurdle and the Juvelile Hurdle
which were run miles faster when Metier won than when Constitution Hill won which explains Metiers faster time.

However despite running on much much slower ground at the buisness end of the race Constitution Hill took 31 seconds to get from the 2nd last to the winning post Metier took 34 seconds

So despite a huge disadvatage Constitution Hill racing on much slower ground all the way round would have finished 12 length ahead of Metier,where it really matters, .

IMVHO If Metier who turned out to be very ordinary when beaten a distance in the Supreme wins the Betfair Capt Ryan Price will rise from his grave and congratulate Harry Fry for training the best laid out horse since Hill House:lol:

I should add. As for Constitution Hill going a dawdle he was 11 seconds faster than the H'cap Hurdle that day Metier was only 3 seconds faster so Constitution Hill's race was most likely LB for LB a overall faster race
 
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Desert clueless :eek:- not in my book.

I think if you ignored the opposition and look at the CH race as a solo run using your eyes and the sectional times you would conclude that only an exceptional horse could have run it as he did on that ground. Add to that his slick technique and that he was reported as “hardly blowing” as he entered the winners enclosure and I’ll be very surprised if the hype is not fully merited. Can’t wait to see him again even though I’m a Jonbon
fan.
 
I assume you are kidding..he actually said he was confident Celtic would win the Premier.......how clueless do you have to be to say something like that:lol:

I certainly don't agree Constitution Hill is a 148 horse that is an insult to human intellegence as is Honeysuckle 166 rating.

I to this day can't get my head round some ratings and the lack of imagination.

Especially this mares allowance.......Fair enoughthey are the weaker sex so 7lbs seems fair.

But then when they rate them they whip it straight back off them........so weird,

A classic example was Zarkava who was much more impressive than Sea The Stars when they both beat the same horse in the Arc.

However because she gets a mares allowance which is supposed to be fair he gets rated higher by Timeform and the OR.

Now we have a similar situation here Honeysuckle 165 Sharjah 164......

My point is these rating that people like DO keep ramming down our throats along with their own are about as much use as a Spiderman Suit without a zipper.......you just end up with a load of ****.

Anyone who wants to convince me that if Honeysuckle and Sharjah met at level weights Sharjah would beat her by 6 lengths :blink:
 
Tanlic said:
A classic example was Zarkava who was much more impressive than Sea The Stars when they both beat the same horse in the Arc.

However because she gets a mares allowance which is supposed to be fair he gets rated higher by Timeform and the OR.
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Not true.
Timeform Arc ratings:
Zarkava 130+
STS 129+
 
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Tanlic said:
A classic example was Zarkava who was much more impressive than Sea The Stars when they both beat the same horse in the Arc.

However because she gets a mares allowance which is supposed to be fair he gets rated higher by Timeform
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This has got my attention. I'm getting emotional.

STS/Zarkava - who wins?
 
I honestly never knew that Euro....seems like I have been arguing with myself all these years.

I always said She was the bestter/easier Arc winner Frankel as she only needed to be poushed out hands and heels to beat the same horse an all out Sea The Stars beat,

The Sea The Stars commentry was rubbish when he said Sea the Stars had 5 lengths or was it 6 lengths to make up...it was actually half that when you see the race finish side on.

I think with her ability to quicken she'd have beaten him for easily
 
I agree.......
Let's face it where would the Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe be without
Scottish Triumph Hurdle Trial Juvenile Hurdle at Musselburgh:lol:
 
Dysart Dynamo barely out of a hack canter there and wins as a 4/9 shot should


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I haven't seen the race yet as I got a bit tied up as you do.

I will have alook but blow me the horse could be backed at 20/1 yesterday he's beaten a very ordinary horse into 2nd
and suddenly he ousted Sir Gerhard as 3rd favourite and with some is sharing 2nd fav with Jonbon:blink:

As I say I still have to see the race but blow me these bookies must be extracting the urine with this one?
 
Tanlic said:
I haven't seen the race yet as I got a bit tied up as you do.

I will have alook but blow me the horse could be backed at 20/1 yesterday he's beaten a very ordinary horse into 2nd
and suddenly he ousted Sir Gerhard as 3rd favourite and with some is sharing 2nd fav with Jonbon:blink:

As I say I still have to see the race but blow me these bookies must be extracting the urine with this one?
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He’s beaten better horses than CH.

Ive no doubt if he was jn the Hendo stable you’d be quaking with your Honeysuckle bets again.
 
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