Overdose

Watched the race and have to admit was sad to see the horse go down. But as the commentator said he may run times, but simply does not have the class to carry him.

Suny my point is now proven. Winning a Group 3 race in the middle of Rome against horses that are subpar Group 3 / Listed types is not going to win you a race at Group 1 or 2 level on the big stage.
 
I'm not sure that was the best he can do GA..tbh i don't know what they are wanting..the horse has no form on fast ground..his action today looked like he hits the ground hard..more pronounced than on videos anyway

most sprints here that are worth winning are usually on fast ground..so not sure what they can achieve with him if he is ground dependant
 
Not much around for Sole Power :confused:

This is when I think its a shame a race like the Hong Kong International Sprint was raised from 5f to 6f. Can understand why they did it, to attract the international field and appeal to the event.

But you see horses like this, who are 5f specialists, with very limited chances and opportunity. All the good races are sadly at 6f to 7f.
 
EC1 said:
I'm not sure that was the best he can do GA..tbh i don't know what they are wanting..the horse has no form on fast ground..his action today looked like he hits the ground hard..more pronounced than on videos anyway
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Absaloutly agree and his times on slower ground are very good - last 2 5f runs:
5f good ground 57.10 by 6 lengths
5f good ground 56.40 by 10 lengths

He has had well documented foot problems and you could see he really wasn't letting himself down. The time today was very fast indicating a quick surface. Hopefully he wont come out of the race too footsore and we will have a wet June :). Really hate to see a fairytale end.
 
Grand Armee said:
Suny my point is now proven. Winning a Group 3 race in the middle of Rome against horses that are subpar Group 3 / Listed types is not going to win you a race at Group 1 or 2 level on the big stage.
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:lol:


thats your opinion and I have mine.
I prefer mine

Todays doesnt proof anything

He is 3 years older
has had injuries and todays run is like rating Daylami for his Arc or DAncing BRave for his Breeders Cup.
 
sunybay said:
:lol:


thats your opinion and I have mine.
I prefer mine

Todays doesnt proof anything

He is 3 years older
has had injuries and todays run is like rating Daylami for his Arc or DAncing BRave for his Breeders Cup.
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You think my comment is laughing stock. God your comments are the most laughable ever, and everyone including a handicapper from NYRA, I have shown has said the same thing "Does this person actually rate Italian form better than English, Australian, Hong Kong, Dubai and Singaporean form." The way you rated his performance in Italy as if it were a Group 1 in Hong Kong or Dubai against a bunch of no names, who have had the most inspiring careers since.

The quality he beat that day is the EXACT same type of horse (named Patapan, and was the highest rated sprinter in Italy) that came down here to Australia in 2008 and ended up running in mediocre Saturday 1 win races and best effort was 6 lengths 5th to a race in that particular division.

Yep world class. I just think you don't want to admit that you are wrong. Simple as that.

As Hamm said name us ONE decent horse he has beaten in his career? We cannot use the ill fated Abbaye performance because it was re run, and he didn't show up, so therefore did not "win."
 
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Grand Armee said:
God your comments are the most laughable ever, and everyone including a handicapper from NYRA,
"
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these kind of comments makes me think why I lost my time in the forum writing for some people that can not understand what I post.....


about the rivals
just imagine Usain Bolt beats the world record beating a field of men gr3 class by a long distance, that makes him a bad athetle?


About yesterday , of course I was wrong and the horse was beaten but if Federer is beaten 3 years later of his peak, does make him a bad tennis player?
the answer is NO


Overdose in Italy posted a better nce than Black Caviar has done so far, I know you are australian and you are offended but I dont mind,
with luck you will understand the game in less than 20 years.
 
Suny and GA, you're both being a little precious over this to be honest. There is nothing wrong with good debate without getting offended, it's what this place is all about.

I was sad to see Overdose get beat yesterday and I think it was for one of two reasons or a combination of both. Either he isn't the horse he used to be (I'll come on to this) or he hated the ground as it was obvious he wasn't going to win after about 50 yards as he wasn't showing his usual speed. I'd like to see him run again over here or in France but on softer ground as I think that will help settle the debate. As Euro says, I backed him yesterday as I thought he could bring a bit of class against our over rated poor crop of sprinters.

Suny, as GA points out, there is simply no justification for rating Overdose better than Black Caviar on that one Italian run. There is no doubt that the win in Italy was top class and as others have pointed out, beating Black Mambazo (who is a consistent Group 3ish sprinter with reasonable performances in Group 1s) by 10 lengths warrants a very high rating but the RPRs have it in at 123 and whilst I could see the argument for pushing that slightly higher as the 3rd was a consistent low 100s horse, you couldn't rate the horse solely on that one exceptional run and claim he's better than Black Caviar. Black Caviar has consistently beat other Group One sprinters on every run and fully deserves her rating higher than Overdose.

Overdose, if he had more luck in the past may well have been able to run to the level you believe of him (I myself believe in 2008, he probably would have done) but on all known form in the book, he has only posted a lofty rating once and whilst it's a shame he hasn't had the chance to repeat that (connections have campaigned him poorly imo), he is nonetheless an inferior horse to Black Caviar.

Yesterday proved that Overdose is not up to winning against our sprinters in 2011 on firm ground, it didn't prove he wasn't up to it in 2008 or on softer ground in 2011 but even I believe the latter is unlikely now.
 
Lads,

Good horse don't just post good ratings - they win good races and/or beat good horses. Lets not put racing solely in a mathematical context.
 
Hamm said:
Lads,

Good horse don't just post good ratings - they win good races and/or beat good horses. Lets not put racing solely in a mathematical context.
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It was ok to put the Goldikova/Canford Cliffs debate in a solely mathematical context though... :p

Totally agree with the point though, Overdose hasn't had the opportunity to show he's a Group One horse. His fans can't prove he is on one exceptional run and his detractors can't prove he wasn't on a race ran 2 1/2 years later on unsuitable ground.

The debate is done for me until he next runs, Overdose once had the potential to prove he was a top class sprinter but his connections never campaigned him to prove it.
 
No, I think horses generally have to be compared using some sort of standard measure - but, if one horse hasn't even beaten a half decent horse (and I'm not being remotely picky) or won a half decent race (with respect to Germany and Italy), then I think that argument can be used.

Looks like Overdose will always be a 'what if' horse :p
 
Sadly, I think you're right.

Whatever you think about Italian sprint racing, there is no doubt that the run in Rome in November 2008 is top class. He beat two horses rated in the low 100s by 10 lengths which equates to a massive rating. However, he cannot be rated solely on this run, it is merely an indicator of his potential.
 
With regard to Gamla Stan's post about 'preciousness' above.

I think the problem lies at times with the language that posters some time use. We are a fairly small community and we really can't afford to drive posters away by disrespecting other posters opinion.

The use of the word "laughable", and I'm not pointing the finger at any particular poster here, and the emoticon :lol: in response to a post is at least 'disrespectful.

Pull the opinion apart, point out the errors in the opinion (in one's opinion) but don't just rubbish it, PLEASE.
 
Colin Phillips said:
With regard to Gamla Stan's post about 'preciousness' above.

I think the problem lies at times with the language that posters some time use. We are a fairly small community and we really can't afford to drive posters away by disrespecting other posters opinion.

The use of the word "laughable", and I'm not pointing the finger at any particular poster here, and the emoticon :lol: in response to a post is at least 'disrespectful.

Pull the opinion apart, point out the errors in the opinion (in one's opinion) but don't just rubbish it, PLEASE.
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I'll just add to that good post Colin

Sneering at someone for getting it wrong is also not the best way to get people posting here

I sometimes wonder if certain individuals here are happy to keep the forum as a small arena..big fish in small pool mentality

personally i don't think thats healthy

i'll tell you now.. i don't care how often i get it wrong...we all have hot spots and cold spots..we all get it wrong at some point.

its about time the board was not used as a points scoring arena by some..because if that mentality continues..then the red hot debate will be no more..people won't be prepared to take strong stances if all they get afterwards is stick..and i'm not just talking about banter..i'm talking about nasty digging at people..the 2000g thread is a fine example yesterday

i've taken breaks from here before because some people don't have the good grace to win properly..and i know for a fact that this board has lost very good posters for similar reasons..DO for one.

Someone like DO is a great loss..as was Warbler..some here think that posters aren't important..oh another one will come along soon etc..but folk like Warbler and DO are few and far between on forums..i been posting and reading forums since about 2001..i know what makes a good board..good posters.

Anyone that read the Direct Racing forum from 2001 to 2004 knows what a good board is..and they also know how to value good posters.
 
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I was concerned before the race that Overdose wasn't sweating up in his usual way. He probably isn't the horse that he was a couple of years ago, but I'd hate people to look at his record back then in a 'but he didn't beat much' because he was something special. By the way, I was rather taken with Sole Powers trainer; found him incredibly witty when interviewed on Ch 4...what was it he said 'we're going to the posh place'...
 
sunybay said:
I know you are australian and you are offended but I dont mind, with luck you will understand the game in less than 20 years.
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Well for what its worth, I rarely post on here anyway.

I apologise if I have offended anyone, but I stand by my beliefs and if you don't like it then sobeit.

But the above post is similar to something I received back in 2008 (when some racist remarks were made) and actually stopped contributing for a very long time.

This will be my last post here on this forum.
 
Grand Armee said:
Well for what its worth, I rarely post on here anyway.

I apologise if I have offended anyone, but I stand by my beliefs and if you don't like it then sobeit.

But the above post is similar to something I received back in 2008 (when some racist remarks were made) and actually stopped contributing for a very long time.

This will be my last post here on this forum.
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I think Suny is referring to you supporting a horse from your own country..not just saying because you are from Australia

you are reading something into it that isn't there imo
 
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