Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2012

from wiki

The principle of WFA was developed by Admiral Rous, a handicapper with the English Jockey Club. Rous experimented with weights until he arrived at a relationship between age and maturity, expressed in terms of weight.

His original scale has undergone only minor alterations since his work in the 1860s.
 
Key thing is that those most affected by it, trainers and breeders, have rarely questioned. Theres little dissent that ive seen

Some will slag off trainers for that no doubt and some will say that they have as many older horse chances as younger but it still stands IMO
 
Jesus Christ - I leave ye alone for a couple of hours and this is what I come back to!!:whistle:

a bit of debate is good for the board..its better than 3 posts a day we were getting a few week ago;)

for anyone [Aragorn yer little tinker:)]that finds it boring..do what i do ..and just read other threads..there are lots of threads i don't bother with..rather than post what a lot of boring arse i just don't read em tbh
 
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The typical French 3yo prep for an Arc. When did that start? I bet it was quite recent.

Vaguely Noble in 1968 is my guess. As Major Holliday died so did his classic entries. Sold at Newmarket Dec sales 1967 for a record sum 136000 gns he went to be trained by Etienne Pollet. His comprehensive defeat of Sir Ivor made folk sit up and take notice.
Pollet had trained Sea Bird to win Prix Greffuhle, Epsom Derby, GP de Saint Cloud and Arc in 1965; interestingly having instructed TP Glennon to have SB pulled up before the road that crosses the racecourse 50 yds beyond finish lest it break the horse down.
The defeat of Nijinsky by Sassafras in 70 made people think also, though Sassafras had a busy campaign winning French Derby and Leger.
Mr Fabre perfected the 3yo Arc prep so he followed on what Pollet began.
(This is guesswork on my part):)
 
Key thing is that those most affected by it, trainers and breeders, have rarely questioned. Theres little dissent that ive seen

Some will slag off trainers for that no doubt and some will say that they have as many older horse chances as younger but it still stands IMO

Gosden is one of the biggest critics of the wfa scale.

You're right that breeders are content with things as they stand though. Its in their interests to offload horses as soon as possible and for them to achieve what they achieve and get out at the other end so the process can begin again as soon as possible. Consequently they are all for the emphasis being on the younger horses. They don't want older horses hanging around. But in an already overproduced industry the rest of us (should) do.
 
Vaguely Noble in 1968 is my guess. As Major Holliday died so did his classic entries. Sold at Newmarket Dec sales 1967 for a record sum 136000 gns he went to be trained by Etienne Pollet. His comprehensive defeat of Sir Ivor made folk sit up and take notice.
Pollet had trained Sea Bird to win Prix Greffuhle, Epsom Derby, GP de Saint Cloud and Arc in 1965; interestingly having instructed TP Glennon to have SB pulled up before the road that crosses the racecourse 50 yds beyond finish lest it break the horse down.
The defeat of Nijinsky by Sassafras in 70 made people think also, though Sassafras had a busy campaign winning French Derby and Leger.
Mr Fabre perfected the 3yo Arc prep so he followed on what Pollet began.
(This is guesswork on my part):)

Always a joy to read your stuff btw.
 
Back to business... possible supplementary entries later this morning include Saonois, Great Heavens and Bayrir. Could mix the markets up a bit more.

Anyone got a view on the likely going? If it comes up properly soft Reliable Man could supply big-price place value.
 
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Back to business... possible supplementary entries later this morning include Saonois, Great Heavens and Bayrir. Could mix the markets up a bit more.

Anyone got a view on the likely going? If it comes up properly soft Reliable Man could supply big-price place value.

RP reports raining in Paris at present but likely to dry up by the weekend it seems.

Moore is leaving it late for his comeback but he is jocked up to ride The Gold Cheongsam on Sat in the fillies sales race.
 
Back to business... possible supplementary entries later this morning include Saonois, Great Heavens and Bayrir. Could mix the markets up a bit more.

Anyone got a view on the likely going? If it comes up properly soft Reliable Man could supply big-price place value.

Reliable Man pulled out but Bayyir, Saonois and Great Heavens all supplemented.
 
Simon Rowlands on Betfair:


Europe's richest race takes place at Longchamp on Sunday. Simon Rowlands attempts to separate the myth from the reality...

"The Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe, as we keep being reminded, is the greatest horserace in the world, and this year's contest promises to be as gripping and very nearly as high-quality as usual.

We might have lost last year's winner Danedream and Nathaniel at a late stage, but we look to have acquired the 2000 Guineas and Derby winner Camelot, to go with a Japanese Triple Crown winner in Orfevre, a Prix du Jockey Club winner in Saonois and a possible Breeders' Cup Turf one-two in St Nicholas Abbey and Sea Moon.

Received wisdoms abound concerning the Arc, as they do with most big races, so I thought it worth looking at some of them in greater detail. For this, I took all Arcs run this century - twelve of them in all - and measured performance by percentage of rivals beaten, which was then transformed into margins better or worse than average.

It is, of course, meaningless to state that "eight of the last nine Arcs have been won by three-year-olds" (which is true), without considering what sort of figure could be expected given that age-group's representation.

Furthermore, judging a horse's performance by a binomial "did it win, or did it lose?" is clearly a crude measure. Wins come in different forms and losses come in many different forms too. Percentage of rivals beaten allows for this to a large degree and crucially takes into account field size, which gets left out in simple strike-rates.

Draw
Horses drawn in stalls 1 and 2 (nearest the inner) have beaten 58% of their rivals, where 50% could be expected. This is equivalent to an advantage of about 1.6 lengths. Horses drawn in stalls 11 and higher have beaten 46% of their rivals, equivalent to a disadvantage of about 0.8 lengths.

Conclusion: there is probably something in the draw, but less than often seems to be assumed.

Age
Three-year-olds have provided the majority of Arc winners (75% this century, 63% in the race's near-100-year history), but they have also been the most represented age-group in recent times. More to the point, their percentage of rivals beaten this century is at 52.7%, or only just above par. This is equivalent to about 0.5 lengths advantage. There is little between four-year-olds and horses older than four.

Conclusion: there may be something in the idea that three-year-olds are favoured in the Arc, but any advantage is small, and much smaller than might be imagined at a cursory glance. It seems more relevant that the classic generation seems weaker this year than usual.

Sex
Females have provided just 34 of the 180 runners this century but this group has overperformed in terms of percentage of rivals beaten. 60.1% is equivalent to an advantage over expectation of about 2.0 lengths and of 2.5 lengths over the remaining male runners.

Conclusion: whether it is that fillies and mares thrive at this time of year, or that there is some sort of selection bias in that only the very top horses of that sex are aimed at a race like the Arc, it is difficult to escape the fact that they have a good record in the race, and that seems to apply going further back too.

There is a further received wisdom worth investigating where the Arc is concerned, and that is one I slipped in at the beginning of this piece.

Is the Arc truly "the greatest horserace in the world"? Well, it depends on your criteria. But, in terms of race strength derived from the average Timeform ratings of the first three in the last five years (weighted as 1/N, where N is the finishing position), the Arc comes out on top. But only just!

Its figure is 127.9, whereas the Queen Elizabeth II Stakes (bolstered by Frankel's participation in 2011) is 127.8, the Breeders' Cup Classic (which had a substandard year in 2011, else it would be top) is 127.3, the King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes is 127.1 and the Irish Champion Stakes is 126.8. The Champion Stakes at Ascot is likely to build on its 125.9 and managed 131.3 in 2011.

Some way back are the Dubai World Cup (124.2), the Japan Cup (123.8) and the Melbourne Cup (which is a handicap, on 120.6).

The "conclusion"? That the Arc is indeed the most consistently high-quality race on the planet, but that it cannot afford a substandard year if it is to hold on to that title."

My italics
 
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As with most things in racing, the advantage or disadvantage of specific factors are often overplayed.
 
Interesting. The half-length advantage 3yos seem to have corresponds to the 1lb Steve complains about.

I'd rather have any advantage than none at all, but if I owned an older horse good enough to be in the race, half a length wouldn't put me off taking my chances.
 
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I would argue that the reason why there appears to be a slight advantage for 3yo in the Arc is because there is a tendency for the very best horses not to be kept in training as older horses.

For instance, 30% of the last 20 Cumberland Lodge and St. Simon Stakes have been won by 3yo horses.
 
I would argue that the reason why there appears to be a slight advantage for 3yo in the Arc is because there is a tendency for the very best horses not to be kept in training as older horses.

Undoubtedly so, this is all part and parcel of what makes a trend (I have been stressing the disincentive this causes for older horses to be kept in training)... It's also what I was saying earlier: “It's not simply the change in weight itself but everything that comes with it to change the dynamics of a race”.

“It is not simply that the 3yos have a 1lb less and the older horses need to find a 1lb more, but the attitude of those looking to exploit the shift. This combined has made the difference”.

Also Simon lumps in the horses prior to 1995 together with those since (when the allowance was raised). So the current stats would be greater than the combined average advantage suggested and not so slight as you reckon.
 
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Simon Rowlands on Betfair:Age
Three-year-olds have provided the majority of Arc winners (75% this century, 63% in the race's near-100-year history).
Although it is 75% this century (9-3) = 75%
It is over 82% since the allowance was raised (which is the appropriate and bigger sample) 14-3 = 82.3%

Consequently the advantage is a bit more than Simon suggests in a good piece of analysis.
 
I thought the fillies and mares stat was the one to take out of it. Maybe that allowance is the incorrect one when coupled with the 3yo allowance.
 
Rest of this card is not looking quite as strong as usual but the juvenile races are interesting, in particular the Lagardere. I was really sweet on What a Name for the Boussac but as the Al Thani's have bought a share in Purr Along they clearly want to keep them apart and run her against the colts. I was hoping this would be Olympic Glory vs Cristoforo Columbo but the latter doesn't run so I would have it between OG and What a Name. May leave alone from a betting perspective but the winner of this will be one to follow I reckon.
 
As far as I know What a Name was always going to run in the Grand Criterium

weak card for Arcs standard
 
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