Absolutely no idea why Camelot was priced at 9/4 - staggering price. Lay all day long. Just really confimed again today what we all knew - Shockingly average bunch of 3 year olds this year and the Ballydoyle colt as ever overhyped - It was good for racing there was no Triple Crown , the history books would not show what a load of dross he had beaten to win it...
Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2012
- Thread starter Euronymous
- Start date
Quote from Soumillon about Orfevre: "He has what it takes to win the Arc, he's the best horse I've ever ridden. I hope he'll run against Frankel in the Champion Stakes, or else in the Japan Cup."
Could he be supplemented for the Champion?
Could he be supplemented for the Champion?
S
SlimChance
Guest
Now that would be something! He's a jockey that doesnt mince his words.
Mickey the Marcher
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His schedule will be dictated by Japanese quarantine rules. Probably needs to go into quarantine fairly soon, if not right away, to get back in time for Japan Cup and the big race on St Stephen's day (Arima Kinen??).
Just back from Paris. I too was on Orfevre and would have won a significant sum. Naturally when he swept past the field I thought the race was over. I wouldn't be inclined to blame Soumillon, he hardly expected to be in front so soon. The reported comments from Soumi soon afterwards about best horses he's ridden, etc sound like heat of the moment stuff. He is an excellent horse but he is definitely a bit quirky.
And the winner is a tough bird indeed, to respond the way she did is exceptional and she was a long way clear of the rest of the field.
I don't know if Danedream would have won, but there is a very good chance that she would have done.
And the winner is a tough bird indeed, to respond the way she did is exceptional and she was a long way clear of the rest of the field.
I don't know if Danedream would have won, but there is a very good chance that she would have done.
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This was a soft to heavy ground Arc and the form is very suspect.
The winner was evidently an improving filly but she could not even beat Allied Powers in the spring on very soft ground and I doubt she would have been in the first four on good ground .
Orfevre is evidently talented but bonkers to have run almost diagonally after getting to the front . I am surprised they even ran Camelot on that ground after he struggled to beat Born to Sea in the Irish Derby .
Surely, the " would have won " horse was Nathaniel - he loves soft ground and I suspect would have won comfortably .
The winner was evidently an improving filly but she could not even beat Allied Powers in the spring on very soft ground and I doubt she would have been in the first four on good ground .
Orfevre is evidently talented but bonkers to have run almost diagonally after getting to the front . I am surprised they even ran Camelot on that ground after he struggled to beat Born to Sea in the Irish Derby .
Surely, the " would have won " horse was Nathaniel - he loves soft ground and I suspect would have won comfortably .
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S
SlimChance
Guest
I agree with your last two points strongly. I'ce no opinion on the merits of the filly.
This was a soft to heavy ground Arc and therefore the form is top quality soft to heavy ground form.
Regarding Danedream, she is is by Lomitas, who is also the sire of Molly Malone which won the Cadaran today. Another German sire, Monsun, was responsible for Silasol. Danedream herself won a "Very Soft" ground GP von Baden last year. There is a good chance she would have coped with today's conditions and she does happen to be an Arc winner already, by 5 lengths. And she beat Nathaniel at Ascot.
Where is the evidence Nathaniel might have both coped with today's conditions and gained revenge on Danedream?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
Nathaniel is a nice horse but his form is overrated. Danedream wasn't at her best in the King George and the Eclipse was very average. I think Gosden's horses are starting to get very over bet. The filly today wasn't a bet at 16s. I'm not aftertiming as I tweeted as much earlier today
The answer to the first of those questions is that Nathaniel's connections have always suggested he likes soft ground -he would have revelled in the conditions as his sister has done in weaker company .
Danedream beat Nathaniel on the nod after he had been held up in preparation and the Eclipse had perhaps taken the edge off him being closer to the KG than ideal this year . I think he had more scope for improvement than her , much as I admire the filly and I suspect she would have coped with the conditions but they would have suited him more, and that would have enabled him to turn the tables .
Like when Sagamix beat Leggera - those titans of Arc history ?
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
It wasn't the best quality Arc but there were plenty of Group 1 winners in it. The Sagamix renewal was the worst one I can remember. Arc's that bad are very much the exception.
Nathaniel's connections deserve to be taken to be taken seriously but racecourse performance deserves to be taken most seriously of all.
Regarding today's winner, maybe she's more along the lines of Urban Sea, a big outsider who won a soft ground Arc. If she can match that one as a mare we have a lot to look forward to.
Regarding today's winner, maybe she's more along the lines of Urban Sea, a big outsider who won a soft ground Arc. If she can match that one as a mare we have a lot to look forward to.
The ground was no worse than soft - something I suspected immediately Mayson was outpaced in the early stages of the Abbaye (run in just 4.37 secs above standard).
Horses don't show the kind of acceleration Orfevre did on heavy ground (it was acceleration, as the sectionals clearly show), though the effort clearly took its toll in the closing stages.
For mine. Nathaniel would have loved the ground, and kept going when Orfevre didn't, so maybe supporters of the Jap horse had all their luck when the Gosden horse was taken out.
Horses don't show the kind of acceleration Orfevre did on heavy ground (it was acceleration, as the sectionals clearly show), though the effort clearly took its toll in the closing stages.
For mine. Nathaniel would have loved the ground, and kept going when Orfevre didn't, so maybe supporters of the Jap horse had all their luck when the Gosden horse was taken out.
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I think that if Orfevre had better horses to race against, he wouldn't have got daylight too soon.
I'd fancy him to show that acceleration later in the race to beat Nathaniel, Danedream etc.
Soumillion's issue was that the he was going past the pacemakers and was left clear.
I'd fancy him to show that acceleration later in the race to beat Nathaniel, Danedream etc.
Soumillion's issue was that the he was going past the pacemakers and was left clear.
Been a long time since I've been on here, but for Soumillon talking last night that's the best horse he's ridden by far. He got beat by the fact there was nothing to beat in the race, he didn't want to go to the front before the last 150 yards or so but the horse was so much better than anything else there that he was scared of upsetting the horse by pulling back too long.
Once in front though Orfevre just started playing about and looking for horses, he actually started moving right when he was accelerating about 1f out not for tiredness but just looking for horses.
Anyway, after the race the horse wasn't tired and didn't really blow, so it's a question of what's the biggest challenge for the owners, finishing by winning the Japan Cup or taking on Frankel, which they're really pushing the owners to do
Once in front though Orfevre just started playing about and looking for horses, he actually started moving right when he was accelerating about 1f out not for tiredness but just looking for horses.
Anyway, after the race the horse wasn't tired and didn't really blow, so it's a question of what's the biggest challenge for the owners, finishing by winning the Japan Cup or taking on Frankel, which they're really pushing the owners to do
I find this a very odd interpretation . Nathaniel's form was streets ahead of Solemia .
Meanwhile
Andre Fabre's Masterstroke was carrying the French colours of Godolphin, whose racing manager Simon Crisford said: "He ran really well and is going to be a really nice mile-and-a-half horse next year.
"He was beaten by better horses on the day, but he is one to look forward to."
Evidently a campaign in weak backend listed races for Saeed bin Suroor awaits
Let alone Zarkava who came from behind to win the Arc .
Gamla Stan
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Back in the UK and have watched the waterboarding that is the replay a few times now. Every time, I am at a loss to explain how he gets beat when he hits the front. The electric acceleration he showed is absolutely astonishing, there is no way Soumillon is in any way to blame. Either the horse got tired very quickly or got lonely out in front but he had so much horse under him (a horse who's won over 1m7f) when he pressed the button that it's no surprise he went for it.
They were talking about sending Solemia to the Opera, if they had, we'd be looking at a 7 length winner of the Arc who won it in devastating fashion. I'm not sure I'll experience punting pain like it if I live to be 200, to be on him from January at all prices down, it's very hard to take to have victory snatched away like that. He was arguably a touch unlucky that she was where she was when he hit the front, if she had been dead on the rail, I don't think she'd have rallied so much and caught him.
Either way, he's some horse and the connections deserve plaudits for a perfect preparation and whilst I highly doubt he'll take on Frankel (Japan Cup more important for them), that will be the best race to be run at Ascot in years with Cirrus in attendance.
The Japanese are determined to win this race and their investment in bloodstock shows this by buying Harbinger and Workforce. It'll soon be the norm for 3 or 4 top class Japanese runners to line up in the race. Gentildonna being a candidate for next season if she wins the Japanese Leger in a few weeks time.
Great atmosphere on course too with the Japanese being typically friendly and gracious.
They were talking about sending Solemia to the Opera, if they had, we'd be looking at a 7 length winner of the Arc who won it in devastating fashion. I'm not sure I'll experience punting pain like it if I live to be 200, to be on him from January at all prices down, it's very hard to take to have victory snatched away like that. He was arguably a touch unlucky that she was where she was when he hit the front, if she had been dead on the rail, I don't think she'd have rallied so much and caught him.
Either way, he's some horse and the connections deserve plaudits for a perfect preparation and whilst I highly doubt he'll take on Frankel (Japan Cup more important for them), that will be the best race to be run at Ascot in years with Cirrus in attendance.
The Japanese are determined to win this race and their investment in bloodstock shows this by buying Harbinger and Workforce. It'll soon be the norm for 3 or 4 top class Japanese runners to line up in the race. Gentildonna being a candidate for next season if she wins the Japanese Leger in a few weeks time.
Great atmosphere on course too with the Japanese being typically friendly and gracious.
not for me
Cirrus , Dalkhani and Orfevre better horses than the fillie, also rate higher than her Excelebration, Dylan Thomas, Makfi or Hurricane Run
I find this a very odd interpretation . Nathaniel's form was streets ahead of Solemia .
Was yes
Is NO
Going into yesterday's race you could have said nearly every other horse in it was streets ahead of Solemia, so it proves nothing.
I think this underestimates how tough conditions were. These were top class horses yesterday, not a Friday at Cork or Newcastle, so yes, some of them were able to look good and even to quicken. But more than one horse in yesterday's races ran out of petrol after looking odds on to win.
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