Prix de l'Arc de Triomphe 2012

Grey said:
I think it's a shame that Frankel will be missing from the Arc. This piece from Brian O'Connor's blog on irish-racing.com sums it up well
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I agree. I didn't really think it would happen, but regret it hasn't. Peter Thomas relects similarly in today's Post in his article Grandad how could Frankel be best ever? re the task of persuading a generation that didn't see him that he was the best will be difficult.
 
Great Heavens looks likely to head for the Prix Vermeille rather than the St Leger. I've also got her down as having an optimum trip of 12 furlongs.
 
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Camelot is unbeaten in five starts

in total
he has beaten 2 gr1 winners, one by a neck and the other underperformed.
no horse beaten by him has gone on to win a gr1 race since,

his form looks very weak at the moment, if you compare it to the oposition Frankel has faced , the comparation is an embarrasment.
 
It's been the worst crop of 3yo colts I can ever remember. The St James Palace in particular was a brutal renewal.

If he runs in the Arc after taking in the Leger he'll finish where virtually every other 3yo his trainer takes to the race finishes. Nowhere.
 
Euronymous said:
It's been the worst crop of 3yo colts I can ever remember. The St James Palace in particular was a brutal renewal.

If he runs in the Arc after taking in the Leger he'll finish where virtually every other 3yo his trainer takes to the race finishes. Nowhere.
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Totally agree on the first point, it was basically a bloody handicap.

On the second point, I also agree and I think they know it. The Leger will be weaker than the Arc by a good way and I suspect they'll swerve the Arc and go straight to the BC Classic (may run him in that Dundalk egg and spoon race as a prep) and retire him with a superstar reputation.
 
Like Frankel I also expect Camelot to skip the Arc, but he could go after Frankel in the Champion Stakes after the Leger (he is very versatile in respect of trip). This may well enhance the reputation of both.
 
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SteveM said:
Like Frankel I also expect Camelot to skip the Arc, but he could go after Frankel in the Champion Stakes after the Leger (he is very versatile in respect of trip). This may well enhance the reputation of both.
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This is the race that should happen. Going for the Champion will give him the time to recover from the Leger (assuming he wins of course) and it makes sense for Coolmore as Camelot probably has less to lose than Frankel.
 
I dont see it with such an interest
I would prefer Frankel on 6f against an in form Black Caviar
or Cirrus at his best over 11f on heavy ground
or 12f vs Orfevre


Camelot at the moment is nothing especial
 
sunybay said:
Camelot at the moment is nothing especial
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Perhaps it's your choice of words, but Camelot has gone from winning his maiden to taking four Group 1s in succession, three of them classics (at 8 furlongs and 12 furlongs), from just five starts. This is pretty special by any definition of the word.
 
edgt said:
I just hope for good ground for the remainder of the flat season. We have had far too much rain all year. Then we shall see horses fulfilling their potential.
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Amen to that. Many have simply not had the opportunities they deserve.
 
the level of form shown in a normal year would make a gr1 placed horse, nothing more

can you imagine him beating Motivator, Authorized, High Chaparral, Sinndar, New Approach , Workforce, Galileo, Lammtarra etc in a Derby

or Frankel, Kings Best, Henrythenavigaotr, Makfi ,Sea The Stars, George Washington ,Haahfdh , Mark Or Steem etc in a Guineas


I dont
 
Camelot wouldn't have had to beat those horses to win their Derby/Guineas. He would just have had to beat horses like Walk In the Park, Eagle Mountain, Tartan Bearer, At First Sight ... or Roderic O'Connor, Dick Turpin, Delegator, Snow Ridge.
 
True that. But an awful lot of the horses suny named went on to beat their elders. Lammtarra was a top class 3yo and he's remembered chiefly for besting the likes of Pentire, Freedom Cry and Swain. He won a poor Derby notable mainly because Denman's dad ran in it.
 
Truth is, nobody knows how good Camelot is, as he's never been properly tested. When he has, and failed, the knockers might have some credence.
 
He has his knockers because his connections do not possess balls and neither do the bookies who price him up at outrageous prices for a race he won't win.
 
Born To Sea tested him and it wasn't impressive what he did to BTS..seeing as how in his next race he lost by a street length to a 117 horse

i think hype has taken over from reality

Camelot has done very well with his haul this year..but in most years i doubt he would have won as much..unless anyone thinks these are above average3yo's...then how can he have done anything that special that a number of other horses would have done given such weak oppo

don't take constructive criticism as "knocking"..its reality thats all

and by the way..i was a big fan of his guineas win
 
For me, he has been so underwhelming that he has diminished what winning the triple crown means. Shame.
 
triple crown is out of fashion

Sea The Stars is considered higher for his irish Champion and arc wins than he would have been if winning the st leger
 
Maybe so but had he won the Leger he would be no less a horse than he was after winning at York, which was exceptional.
Camelot may be the last to attempt Triple Crown for some time; if he succeeds he may revive the importance of TC; if not it will be dead and buried esp with the attitude that the 3yo males are poor this year. There is still time for them to redeem themselves on better ground I hope.
 
Orfevre cut 10/1 best price
some places at 8/1

he can be 2/1 next monday




ATAR PRIX DU MOULIN DE LONGCHAMP , le 16.09.2012, LONGCHAMP
GROUPE I , PLAT, 1.600 mètres, corde à DROITE. ( 257.130,
1 EXCELEBRATION IRE M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . D.SMITH/MME J.MAGNIER/M.TABOR AP. O'BRIEN 1.220.352
2 Farhh Gb M.Ps. 4 A.
58 *** . GODOLPHIN S. BIN SUROOR 467.216
3 MOONLIGHT CLOUD GB F.PS. 4 A.
56,5 *** GEORGE STRAWBRIDGE F. HEAD (S) 592.468
4 POWER GB M.PS. 3 A.
56 *** . M.TABOR/D.SMITH/MME J.MAGNIER AP. O'BRIEN 506.164
5 Reply Ire M.Ps. 3 A.
56 *** . MAGNIER/TABOR/SMITH/MORDUKHOV AP. O'BRIEN 311.174
6 MOST IMPROVED (IRE) M.PS. 3 A.
56 *** IRAJ PARVIZI BJ. MEEHAN 246.285
7 CASPAR NETSCHER GB M.PS. 3 A.
56 *** CHARLES WENTWORTH AJ. MCCABE 321.091
8 SARKIYLA F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** S.A. AGA KHAN A.DE ROYER DUPRE 90.100

QATAR PRIX VERMEILLE , le 16.09.2012, LONGCHAMP
GROUPE I , PLAT, 2.400 mètres, corde à DROITE. ( 199.990,
1 SHARETA (IRE) F.PS. 4 A.
58 *** S.A. AGA KHAN A.DE ROYER DUPRE 1.526.209
2 SARAH LYNX IRE F.PS. 5 A.
58 *** MME ROBERT G. EHRNROOTH J. HAMMOND (S) 782.652
3 LA POMME D'AMOUR GB F.PS. 4 A.
58 *** GUY REED A. FABRE 139.800
4 GALIKOVA F.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . WERTHEIMER & FRERE F. HEAD (S) 753.595
5 SOLEMIA (IRE) F.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . WERTHEIMER & FRERE C. LAFFON-PARIAS 199.550
6 PIRIKA (IRE) F.PS. 4 A.
58 *** TERUYA YOSHIDA A. FABRE 55.750
7 ROMANTICA GB F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** KHALID ABDULLAH A. FABRE 121.700
8 SAGAWARA (GB) F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** H.H. AGA KHAN A.DE ROYER DUPRE 197.280
9 YELLOW AND GREEN GB F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** CHEIK ABDULLAH BIN KHALIFA AL T N. CLEMENT 114.550
10 WAS IRE F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** . D.SMITH/MME J.MAGNIER/M.TABOR AP. O'BRIEN 348.066
11 SALOMINA GER F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** . GESTUT BONA P. SCHIERGEN 268.000
12 SEDICIOSA (IRE) F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** MAURICE LAGASSE Y. BARBEROT 80.000
13 PRINCESS HIGHWAY USA F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** . MOYGLARE STUD FARM LTD DK. WELD 193.367
14 GREAT HEAVENS GB F.PS. 3 A.
54,5 *** LADY ROTHSCHILD J. GOSDEN 312.977
15 SYDARRA F.PS. 3 a.
54,5 405 . WERTHEIMER & FRERE F. HEAD (S) 32.100

QATAR PRIX NIEL , le 16.09.2012, LONGCHAMP
GROUPE II , PLAT, 2.400 mètres, corde à DROITE. ( 74.100,
1 Last Train Gb M.Ps. 3 A.
58 *** KHALID ABDULLAH A. FABRE 160.310
2 BAYRIR M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** S.A. AGA KHAN A.DE ROYER DUPRE 346.321
3 KESAMPOUR M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** S.A. AGA KHAN M. DELZANGLES 216.250
4 MANDAEAN GB M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** . GODOLPHIN M. AL ZAROONI 157.274
5 IMPERIAL MONARCH IRE M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** . MME MAGNIER/M.TABOR/D.SMITH AP. O'BRIEN 390.531
6 MAIN SEQUENCE USA M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** FAMILLE NIARCHOS DR. LANIGAN 476.883
7 SMOKING SUN USA M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** FAMILLE NIARCHOS P. BARY (S) 81.500
8 SAONOIS M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** PASCAL TREYVE JP. GAUVIN 991.400
9 TOP TRIP (GB) M.PS. 3 A.
58 *** JOERG VASICEK F. DOUMEN (S) 190.460
10 REMUS DE LA TOUR M.PS. 3 A.
58 505 BARTHELEMY VIVES K. BORGEL (S) 136.900
11 YELLOW AND GREEN GB F.PS. 3 A.
56,5 *** CHEIK ABDULLAH BIN KHALIFA AL T N. CLEMENT 114.550

QATAR PRIX FOY , le 16.09.2012, LONGCHAMP
GROUPE II , PLAT, 2.400 mètres, corde à DROITE. ( 74.100,
1 FIORENTE IRE M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . BALLYMACOLL STUD FARM LTD SIR MR. STOUTE 144.294
2 MEANDRE M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . FAMILLE ROTHSCHILD A. FABRE 778.517
3 TREASURE BEACH GB M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . HAY/SMITH/MAGNIER/TABOR AP. O'BRIEN 1.615.665
4 JOSHUA TREE IRE M.PS. 5 A.
58 *** . K.K. AL NABOODA/K. ALBAHOU M. BOTTI 633.444
5 Robin Hood Ire M.Ps. 4 A.
58 *** . MME MAGNIER/M.TABOR/D.SMITH AP. O'BRIEN 41.124
6 VADAMAR M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . QATAR BLOODSTOCK LIMITED M. DELZANGLES 214.580
7 ORFEVRE JPN M.PS. 4 A.
58 *** . SUNDAY RACING CO. LTD Y. IKEE 9.004.667
8 AVENTINO JPN M.PS. 8 a.
58 *** MLLE KAZUKO YOSHIDA Y. IKEE 98.938
 
sunybay said:
Orfevre cut 10/1 best price
some places at 8/1

he can be 2/1 next monday
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Mordin has come out for him big style in the Weekender.

Only one 3yo has won a Group 1 against older males this year. A terrible indictment of the current crop. In previous years on the two occasions when the 3yo's had poor records against the older brigade, older horses won the Arc.

The other stat he has is that 12 of the last 13 Arc winners had won a Group 1 race that season by at least two lengths. I believe Sagamix is the one who didn't. Only Camelot, Orfevre, SNA and Monterosso qualify from this year's runners.
 
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