Rather than asking where Constitution Hill would have finished if his connections had decided to turn up, a better question to ask is whether Honeysuckle is the greatest mare we've seen over hurdles. I think she is.
Punchestown 2022
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Rather than asking where Constitution Hill would have finished if his connections had decided to turn up, a better question to ask is whether Honeysuckle is the greatest mare we've seen over hurdles. I think she is.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
It's abit late in the day to be puting on your thinking cap. Obviously you were too slow to take the 13/8 and 6/4 about Epatante like I did
Perhaps, if like me you had took the 3/1 and 11/4 about Native Trail and laid him back at 6/4 and 5/4 like I did you wouldn't need to be thinking about the 2000G.
However it seems you are willing to take the 7/1 about a horse that was readily available at 11/1, 10/1 and 9/1 on the machine this morning.:blink:
I could easily take the option to lay off Epatante off at 4/5 but it was never my intentions with her so Que Sera..I'll survive either way.
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
I have Native Trail at 3s in a double with Chindit from Donny. I have him as the second leg in other doubles with Do Your Job from Ayr, Fakir Doudairies in the Melling and Saint calvados last week. I also have him at 4.1 on the machine - all this as cover for Coroebus. Oh, I forgot, I also have him as the first leg in a double with Tenebrism at 3s and 7/1. I though, will not be laying any of it off, because I don't bet like a pussy
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In your opinion. Would have her third in the last decade. Had she beaten a horse of constitution hill calibre I might agree with you. The greatest mare we've seen over hurdles shouldnt be under pressure to beat what she did yesterday. I would expect CH to be 15l ahead of EoR. don't mind the hoopla but there should be some sober evaluation of her form without being told you are a begrudger (Not you personally) or urged to throw the formbook out the window
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Desert Orchid
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The great win unimpressively pretty regularly.
I wouldn't hold the level of opponent against Honeysuckle for that performance. Even if she had lost I wouldn't have used it as an argument to diminish what she has done in the last couple of seasons.
The fact we were saying it would take a performance in the mid-170s for a male to beat her puts her up among the best. What CH might do against her is irrelevant.
Is she the greatest? I don't know. For me, better than Dawn Run but I don't know enough about the previous generations.
I wouldn't hold the level of opponent against Honeysuckle for that performance. Even if she had lost I wouldn't have used it as an argument to diminish what she has done in the last couple of seasons.
The fact we were saying it would take a performance in the mid-170s for a male to beat her puts her up among the best. What CH might do against her is irrelevant.
Is she the greatest? I don't know. For me, better than Dawn Run but I don't know enough about the previous generations.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
I don't recall you posting any such bets but good luck with the,
Howver I do recall you posting this the other day "My plan is to have a nice back to lay possie on the former lay to back on Native Trail who tends to hit a flat spot" Pussy:lol:
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
TBH I'll be glad when Punchestown is over. It very seldom gives reliable pointer to what the future has in store because half the runners either weren't good enough to run at Cheltemham or are over the top when they get here
Euronymous
Senior Jockey
In Running strategy isn't the same as as just laying off ante-post
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
Fair enough point taken 2/- EW Mitchouka 21/1 4 places
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Who would you have ahead of her for consistency, durability and class?
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
1/6d ew Easyland 75/1 4 places...might get a back to lay in running
Her official rating of 165 is slightly ahead of Annie's peak rating. She has 16 wins now to Annie's 15, so no real difference there, but she's done more of her racing in open company.
At 2m I think she beats Annie Power, at 2m4f I'd be less confident.
Tanlic
Senior Jockey
That's a tough question..Probably NJH would be the best person to answer that having trained Epatante and MTOY
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Well, that's a very different question. I guess that's a summary of your definition of great. I don't particularly care for durability in that context - it's often an excuse to give a bonus to a lesser horse.
The greatest mare is the horse at her peak beating every other mare hurdler at their peak. I'd have Annie Power and Apples Jade as more talented. AJs Irish champion is the only mare that made me go 'wow'. I don't believe Honeysuckle would beat either at their best. Understandably it would be interesting.
16/16 is great. But if she makes it 20/20 next year by beating Echoes of Rain, Sharjah, Ronald pump, darasso etc, the media can enjoy it.
I think honeysuckles wow moment came at punchestown last year where she zoomed by Goshen etc. That's the Honeysuckle I'd like to see up against Apples Jade/Annie Power at their peak.
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Tanlic
Senior Jockey
FFS and more FFS:lol: Not going to make my fortune backing Vauban so I'm off to watch some real speed........Sonic the Hendohog 1:lol:
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ffs,just ffs
Frankel
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Yes I would have them knocking around the same mark.
Brilliant what Honey has achieved. Hard enough getting them back time after time.
I'm still in the Annie camp though.
Grasshopper
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There is just no way Apples Jade was ever a better animal than Honeysuck at any stage of her career….imho. In strict form terms, I’d have to think it’s pretty close between Honeysuckle and Annie Power.
Agree with the general point you’re making though. There’s no place for misty-eyed sentiment when assessing the merit of her form.
As to “greatness”, durability is one of several legit measures, though in Honeysuckle’s case, her consistency is a better one, imo. She runs her race every time she steps onto the racecourse, and that alone elevates her above most other horses.
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The other real wow moment was apples jade's aintree win but there were mitigating circumstances (4yo + ground) that made you think that you couldn't believe your eyes that day.
I don't know what the various agencies ratings are for her Irish champion. I'd be surprised if wasn't far off honeysuckles best.
Honeysuckle doesn't have to beat Constitution Hill to be the greatest racemare if she puts real distance between her and her field. AJ looked like she was in a different parish from similar(ish) opposition.
I don't know what the various agencies ratings are for her Irish champion. I'd be surprised if wasn't far off honeysuckles best.
Honeysuckle doesn't have to beat Constitution Hill to be the greatest racemare if she puts real distance between her and her field. AJ looked like she was in a different parish from similar(ish) opposition.
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granger
Senior Jockey
Anyone think honey will be retired?
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Desert Orchid
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Desert Orchid
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Annie Power's top RPR was 170 but her second-top was 164 so maybe that 170 shouldn't be taken literally.