Road to the Arc de Triomphe

Great thread and great memories here folks.
It had been some Century so far for Champions from Dubai Millenium, Sinndar, through Sea The Stars onto Golden Horn.
We have been spoilt yet we bitch about the quality of horses racing year on year.
That Gleneagles did not race at Leopardstown must be a huge regret for all concerned, that may have settled a lot of argument.
The right result for Coolmore would surely have tripled Gleneagles' value.
 
sunybay said:
timeform has gh equal to olimpic glory
no more words needed
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133 consistent with the 129 they gave Treve last season. OG was overrated by at least 4lbs, one of the company's worst flat ratings I can remember.
 
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OG ran to 132+ when a short head behind Moonlight Cloud and 2 lengths ahead of Intello, ran to 132 when winning the QEII by more than 3 lengths. These were as a 3yo. As a 4yo he managed 129+ winning the JLT and 128+ when winning the Prix Foret on Arc day. A very good horse.

GH ran to 133 when winning the Eclipse from TGG by 3 lengths and 132 when winning the Arc. This as a 3yo. As a 4yo he won't race but if he did he could follow OG path of slight decay in ratings then people wouldn't be so harsh on OG. Its hard to achieve high ratings as a 4yo when giving weight away, Frankel did it but he's the exception and thats why he deserves to be called a great unlike others who are sent to stud without standing the test of time.

Like Criquette Head said about the Arc "its just another race" when asked if she's nervous about Treve winning the 3rd one. Exactly. What matters are what horses are in a race and how they perform in it, it doesn't matter if they meet in France or UK or US, what matters is their quality and what they bring to the table. OG deserves as much respect as GH for winning as many G1s as him and beating somewhat the same level of opponents with the same ease, of course when he brought his A game as no one will judge GH on his Juddmonte outing..
 
Olympic Glory had a career high OH of 125; RPR 127.
Golden Horn 130*, 132.
STS 135, 138.

*currently
 
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Im not one to crawl all over ratings and across generations its a bit more of a minefield than many suspect. A lot of it is guesswork or simply fitting the arguments to suit favoured trainer/horse

I have a lot of time for timeform as well. Great outfit

but half a stone is a huge weight difference and i simply cannot accpet that GH is that inferior to STS. In fact he might be not inferior at all
 
on OHR ratings on what they each beat in the Arc..its very close..both beat 125 hosses 2 lengths..depending if you rate Youmzain and flintshire as similar..some might argue Flintshire is better than youmzain

either way..there isn't much in it at 12f from that angle
 
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I would imagine the ratings would be similar over 12f. STS was superb in the Arc. Very keen early on. Tight for room also. Gap appeared and Kinane went through as you like in no time. Not sure how many would have been able to do that.

Talking of big ratings over 12f. I know he was a 4yr old but Harbinger ran a massive number in KG. 140 I think. May have been 142 but downgraded, not sure. Was there for that. Bit of a wow moment.
 
Unlike Sea The Stars, there is no way Golden Horn would have won the 2000 Gns of this or any other year.
 
Grey said:
Unlike Sea The Stars, there is no way Golden Horn would have won the 2000 Gns of this or any other year.
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i doubt STS could beat sole power at 5f..does that make sole power better?

only talking about 12f tbh..don't think there is much in it at that trip..purely on ratings..and if we don't use ratings then you can talk for 10 years and not make a decision just based on which races a horse wins..ie Best Mate won 3 GC's..is he better than Denman?
 
I'm just making the point that range of achievement has to be taken into account when offering an overall evaluation of a horse.
 
Sea The Stars & Golden Horn -I loved neither but respected both.You've got to love the way STS was 6/6 in Group 1 company as a 3yo -not a hope that Arabian Queen would ever have beaten him but against that I'm not sure how good Rip van Winkle was.Golden Horn probably had a softer start to his 3yo career but that was some performance last week-if he wins at Keenland it will have been an amazing year.I won't be bland and say I can't decide who is the better -STS in my opinion.
 
1st off I feel the need to apologise to STS that this is even being debated :)

I would ask these questions. Regards that Eclipse with STS/RIP. Does anyone think GH would have won that?
Next question, How would STS and GH have fared in the ARC of Treve on her 1st and 2nd?.
 
Frankel said:
1st off I feel the need to apologise to STS that this is even being debated :)

I would ask these questions. Regards that Eclipse with STS/RIP. Does anyone think GH would have won that?
Next question, How would STS and GH have fared in the ARC of Treve on her 1st and 2nd?.
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Since you asked for opinions :) ... Sea The Stars certainly had more speed than either Treve or GH, but his Guineas win was an average one at best and beating Rip Van Winkle by 1 length in the Eclipse is no-where near super-star form, however his 10f form is the best of the 3, but his Arc was a much weaker affair than either Treve's or Golden Horns... yet you always got the impression with Sea The Stars that he could be better... but IMO if he was rated 140 as someone mentioned in this thread then it's certainly on the generous rather than the cautious side... in contrast to Golden Horn who, if he's rated 132 as stated in this thread, has received the opposite treatment. For what it's worth I think Sea The Stars is the better horse out of the 3 because of his versatility, but I would have backed Golden Horn getting 8 lbs over 12f every day of the week.

Considering that the connections had doubts over GH on soft, I think Treve would probably have beat him the first year and last year she ran a quicker time than this years Arc so there is no reason to suspect Treve wouldn't have beat him them as well... but when they did meet he beat her, though she almost certainly didn't show her best form... but that's racing.

It's funny, but I suspect that if Treve had managed to collar GH on the line he probably would received more credit...
 
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Frankel said:
1st off I feel the need to apologise to STS that this is even being debated :)

I would ask these questions. Regards that Eclipse with STS/RIP. Does anyone think GH would have won that?
Next question, How would STS and GH have fared in the ARC of Treve on her 1st and 2nd?.
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No.

I think in my time watching racing only Sakhee and Peintre Celebre would have beaten Treve in her first Arc. Montjeu as well possibly although that's a tricky one given how he won his Arc. Both STS and GH would have been a clear second however, still not convinced Intello stayed the trip in 3rd.

Both STS and GH would have beaten Treve in her second Arc imo.
 
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Euronymous said:
No.

I think in my time watching racing only Sakhee and Peintre Celebre would have beaten Treve in her first Arc.
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You and me are reading mostly from the same page :)

Peintre Celebre's Arc was so strong, Pilsudski, Swain and Helissio... 3 genuine 130+ horses... and he just pulverised them.... A real genuine superstar performance...
 
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