Road to the Arc de Triomphe

Wouldn't argue there. Do enjoy listening to the TF guy. To be fair Phil Smith too.

Yep Frankel just gets left out of these conversations. Not sure I'll ever see another like him.

Now then EC. Give it to me. Golden Horn v STS over 10f and over 12f. Who wins and how far?
 
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The thing with Frankel was even once the (slightly controversial) 3yo allowance was gone, he carried on battering everything. Treve, Hurricane Run, Montjeu etc etc weren't able to do it. That was what truly set him apart. That Queen Anne was just out of this world.

STS was the best looking horse I've ever seen and he transformed over his 3yo season. The main reason he never got a bigger rating was because he only ever did enough and i'm not sure Oxx/Kinane ever let him. What Cecil did with Frankel was truly ballsy and made him a great. It was like Henry knew. Legend of a horse, legend of a trainer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-t_gbpGZ2k
 
Repenting each nce each horse

sts would have beaten gh in the eclipse, international and irish champion
and Gosden horse would have won the derby and the arc.

if You put frankel in all those races he would have won all of them.
 
Frankel said:
Wouldn't argue there. Do enjoy listening to the TF guy. To be fair Phil Smith too.

Yep Frankel just gets left out of these conversations. Not sure I'll ever see another like him.

Now then EC. Give it to me. Golden Horn v STS over 10f and over 12f. Who wins and how far?
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i doubt i will see another Frankel..you might if you in your 20's Frankel?

funnily enough yesterday..i was thinking how STS and GH are similar in a reverse manner..GH..best at 12f..still good at 10f...STS...best at 10f..still good at 12f

thats how i see them..over 10f..STS beats GH..over 12f..hard call..possibly GH

its hard to call..because neither horse ever had an eyeball race at their best trip
 
I'll just add..the Henry/Frankel story is the greatest racing story in my lifetime..it was like a made up film..but was so very real

in 20 years..the relationship between Henry and Frankel will be the stuff of legend..even if it isn't now

i watched the documenatry a while ago..made me cry i don't mind admitting
 
sunybay said:
Repenting each nce each horse

sts would have beaten gh in the eclipse, international and irish champion
and Gosden horse would have won the derby and the arc.

if You put frankel in all those races he would have won all of them.
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you always sum it up in less words than I do Suny:D
 
EC1 said:
I'll just add..the Henry/Frankel story is the greatest racing story in my lifetime..it was like a made up film..but was so very real

in 20 years..the relationship between Henry and Frankel will be the stuff of legend..even if it isn't now

i watched the documenatry a while ago..made me cry i don't mind admitting
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Couldn't agree more. And i'll be able to say I was there for his last race. I was also there for the St James Palace - That was also memorable but for different reasons!!!!
 
Aragorn said:
Couldn't agree more. And i'll be able to say I was there for his last race. I was also there for the St James Palace - That was also memorable but for different reasons!!!!
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out of all his wins..the image of him winning the QA at Ascot puts a shiver down the spine.

if they could have got him settled as he was later in his career..i think he would have won the guineas by 15+ lengths..what he did was visually impressive that day..but if that mid race power could have been conserved it would have been even more memorable
 
EC1 said:
i doubt i will see another Frankel..you might if you in your 20's Frankel?

funnily enough yesterday..i was thinking how STS and GH are similar in a reverse manner..GH..best at 12f..still good at 10f...STS...best at 10f..still good at 12f

thats how i see them..over 10f..STS beats GH..over 12f..hard call..possibly GH

its hard to call..because neither horse ever had an eyeball race at their best trip
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I wish EC.

Interesting seeing differing opinions here.

For me STS would have won at either trip. GH is clearly a good animal. I'm sure STS had more left. Hard to know STS best trip. Always thought 10f but after his Arc where early on things not really going to plan yet still pi**ed on them. I'm adamant he could have won a leger. He was toying half the time.

As for Frankel. We won't talk about 10f. If he had tried 12f. Just not sure myself he would have got home. Well certainly well enough to beat STS.
 
Well.... I'm going to give myself a big pat on the back at this mo... I've just found my post in the Juddmonte thread after Golden Horns defeat by Arabian Queen... :)

Ajdal said:
I still think GH on good ground over 10-12f is a very very good horse indeed and there are a number of reasons to suspect he's capable of far better than he showed in the Juddmonte and if he runs in the Arc and I see an over reaction to his defeat in the price I wouldn't hesitate to back him and if he's on his A-Game on the day he's got every chance of winning it, saying that I am very much in the Treve camp and will be willing her home all the way. I'll still be laying her though :)
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Not feeling quite so clever at this minute though... I've just laid Heaven Scent in the 2.00 at Ponty... f***king wins at 50/1 :(
 
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Aragorn said:
Couldn't agree more. And i'll be able to say I was there for his last race. I was also there for the St James Palace - That was also memorable but for different reasons!!!!
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Was there too. Was like fu**ing sardines but had to be there.
His QA was ridiculous, like most races. Poor Excelebration tried to go with him and paid the price. So nearly lost 2nd.
 
Ajdal said:
Well.... I'm going to give myself a big pat on the back at this mo... I've just found my post in the Juddmonte thread after Golden Horns defeat by Arabian Queen... :)



Not feeling quite so clever at this minute though... I've just laid Heaven Scent in the 2.00 at Ponty... f***king wins at 50/1 :(
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Every horse can get beat. He bounced back well GH. STS had to be woken up at York.

Ouch!
 
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EC1 said:
that sentence alone tells you how good Frankel was...excel went with him..and lost by 11...excel was a late 120's horse..an above average miler
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Indeed. Damn good horse Excelebration.
Must have thought it was Christmas when lining up for his QE11 win and didn't see Frankel walking around. Absolutely hosed up.
Frankel was dealing with Cirrus. Much better than probably given credit for.

Anyway its been emotional. Gotta go.
 
Frankel said:
I wish EC.

Interesting seeing differing opinions here.

For me STS would have won at either trip. GH is clearly a good animal. I'm sure STS had more left. Hard to know STS best trip. Always thought 10f but after his Arc where early on things not really going to plan yet still pi**ed on them. I'm adamant he could have won a leger. He was toying half the time.

As for Frankel. We won't talk about 10f. If he had tried 12f. Just not sure myself he would have got home. Well certainly well enough to beat STS.
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you are probably right..STS was such a battler..he may have mastered GH...but one thing Frankie did say yesterday i did believe..he said he was going so fast in the last 2 furlongs he knew nothing could pass him....thats a big thing to say..and i don't think it was just talk

either way..compared to an average G1 12f horse..GH is north of it by a decent amount

as with all these horses..when they were at their best..we don't have another one of same level to push em to the max..so we never really know apart from the ratings..and they only measure an pushed performance
 
Frankel was a monster... I still remember the Guineas so well... I always thought Zafonic was the most impressive Guineas winner I ever saw... but Frankel was the only one that made me say "WTF" by half-way...
 
i've seen a lot of guineas winners..if Frankel had run evenly he would have won by 15+..Zafonic was good...but Frankel was a different level

we won't be seeing it again..we have lived/seen/dissected in special times..similar to 1971..i lived in those times but didn't follow racing then..at that time we had two of the monsters of flat racing..in fact by 1973 with what they had in the USA..we had 3 of the best of all time..stretch it to 1970 and we had 4 of the greatest racehorses of all time race in that narrow time span.

its funny how small time frames throw up freaks of the game..then it goes quiet and we have to suffer just the normal very good horse..and forget just how good even they are
 
sunybay said:
Repenting each nce each horse

sts would have beaten gh in the eclipse, international and irish champion
and Gosden horse would have won the derby and the arc.

if You put frankel in all those races he would have won all of them.
Click to expand...

How can you say that when Frankel wasn't even asked to try 12f, never mind win an Arc?
 
EC1 said:
i've seen a lot of guineas winners..if Frankel had run evenly he would have won by 15+..Zafonic was good...but Frankel was a different level

we won't be seeing it again..we have lived/seen/dissected in special times..similar to 1971..i lived in those times but didn't follow racing then..at that time we had two of the monsters of flat racing..in fact by 1973 with what they had in the USA..we had 3 of the best of all time..stretch it to 1970 and we had 4 of the greatest racehorses of all time race in that narrow time span.

its funny how small time frames throw up freaks of the game..then it goes quiet and we have to suffer just the normal very good horse..and forget just how good even they are
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I agree with you EC1 100%... go back two more years and in 1968 we had Sir Ivor, Vaguely Noble and the very under-rated Royal Palace. I'm going to disagree with you on the Guineas one, I still think Zafonic's Guineas win was more impressive, that's not saying I think Zafonic is the better horse because I don't, but I think on Guineas day it would have been mighty close... though I'm pretty confident the majority of you will simply laugh and completely disagree with me :)
 
Zafonic was ridden with loads more restraint than Frankel though..if you remove Frankel's Group class sprint sectionals mid race and add that energy to his late push you would have had the biggest winning distance ever achieved in a guineas..as it was it weren't bad.

If you look at the st James Palace stakes..he scraped home due to similar silly sectionals mid race..remove that mid section wasted energy..add it to the end of the race and he wins easily.

many people watching that SJP thought that was as good as he was..they ignored the wasted energy..some did in the guineas..well he only won by 6 from nowt etc...i read that on this forum

its all about even distribution...when they sorted that..you saw the real monster he was..that was still evident early on if people used their imagination and realised he was expending energy mid race that would have killed other horses off stone dead late on

if 4yo Frankel..the way he expended energy..had run in the guineas..it would have been out of this world at the line
 
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It's a tough Devils advocate job to disagree with you EC1 and you argue the case convincingly... but I still think Zafonic's Guineas win was more impressive and possibly El Gran Senor's as well, just like I think Miesque's mile achievements were greater than Frankel's... but I certainly don't think any of them put up a performance to match Frankel's Queen Anne...
 
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i just view horses with what they do when ridden evenly to show best..in his earlier runs Frankel wasn't able to that..still won though. We are talking really good horses here with el gran senor and Zafonic..but with Frankel..we are talking all time great..there is a difference there imo
 
EC1 said:
you are probably right..STS was such a battler..he may have mastered GH...but one thing Frankie did say yesterday i did believe..he said he was going so fast in the last 2 furlongs he knew nothing could pass him....thats a big thing to say..and i don't think it was just talk
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He was always going to be hard to pass given the pace. Sat off the pacemaker in plum position. I couldn't see anything coming off the pace to collar them. Flintshire and New Bay confirmed that. Though fully entitled to finish up there anyway.
Treve was too far back off this pace on that ground. Had to use up too much gas just to try and get in contention. When the winner kicked she had already used up enough energy hence her run then flattened out. Now if she had got in to a decent possy just in behind. Jarnet could have used her speed to skip away and put the race to bed in strides. GH would have been trying to claw her back but she wouldn't have been for catching. Possibly not on the fast ground but for sure on good ground like last year imo.
 
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